UEFA Champions League 2013/2014

[Kanouté]

How can you tell that BVB made a better season than Atletico? For god sake, they win nothing! And Madrid? Well, Atlético finish La Liga on 1st place and Madrid didn't. Every weekend, during the whole season, they played in that competition and the result was Atlético on 1st place. I am talking about a whole season, not about the last months or the CL matches. Madrid was the best team in the Champions League, but looking at the whole season they weren't...

yep. they were the best team in la liga.

vs barça: 0-0(home) 1-1(away) atletico on away goals.
vs real: atletico 3-2 on aggregate.

but real was better in cl. no shame in this.

 

[miguell]

I so agree with Godoteli! He's totally right in my opinion. Chelsea beat City twice and what? They couldn't win some other easier matches and that proves who was the best team. All I know is that City finished on 1st place. A game or two doesn't decide who is the best and that's why league is the best, because you are playing during all the season against all the teams and the champion doesn't is who won 3 or 4 hard games, but is who won more during 38 games...

 

[miguell]

yep. they were the best team in la liga.

vs barça: 0-0(home) 1-1(away) atletico on away goals.
vs real: atletico 3-2 on aggregate.

but real was better in cl.

Yes, but in my opinion league is best to see who made a best season (explained why in my last post about City and Chelsea)

 

[Kanouté]

look you don't get it. league winner always deserves to be the winner, according to the league format. I don't oppose this.

both city and atletico deserved to be top on their leagues. that's no problem.

looking at the best bunch, chelsea got more points than any other team. so they were the best team but they didn't deserve the title because city got more points in the long run.

in la liga, atletico was better of the best bunch(see my post above) but they also deserved to be the league winners at the same time for the same reason city deserved their league title.

sometimes league format doesn't reward the best of the best. it rewards the most enduring one of the best. sometimes the most enduring team also happen to be the best team in the league(as in atletico's case) but not always(as in city's case).

 

[miguell]

look you don't get it. league winner always deserves to be the winner, according to the league format. I don't oppose this.

both city and atletico deserved to be top on their leagues. that's no problem.

looking at the best bunch, chelsea got more points than any other team. so they were the best team but they didn't deserve the title because city got more points in the long run.

in la liga, atletico was better of the best bunch(see my post above) but they also deserved to be the league winners at the same time for the same reason city deserved their league title.

Yes, I agree with you.

 

[Godotelli]

how would you determine the better of two teams? looking at their head to head results or looking at their results against other teams? clearly the first one makes sense. simple logic. and chelsea beat you home and away. not just a one off.

So Chelsea are better than City?

The smaller the number of games the more randomness can play a part. You wouldn't call an election on the exit poll of 3 people for the same reason. We only lost to Chelsea because we threw the ball in our own net in the last min at the bridge and because we had key injuries at the etihad - we wouldn't be the best team if we had to play Demichelis in CM and never got to use Kun.

Clearly, unless they play each other early on, the best teams tend to get further in cups but it's easier for a lesser team to get far in a cup than in a league. Wigan and Hull got to the FA Cup final in the last 2 years, for instance.

I'm not saying Real are undeserving or comparing them to Wigan, in fact I tipped them right from the beginning. On the day, like Chelsea at the Etihad, Real deserved to win but if Atletico had their strikers I doubt the papers in england would be full of Bale atm.

 

[Kanouté]

yes. I think they were better than city this season (on head to head). if you've won on aggregate in two games, I'd say you were the better side (and you would too ). but chelsea couldn't endure the other factors(smaller games, injuries etc) as well as city did. I always say city deserved the title, under this format.

maybe a post-season play-offs(as in nba) or re-evaluating the points between title contender teams at the end of the season can fix it. so that would be a format that always rewards the best and rank the other teams accurately as well.

btw, real were without xabi alonso too. let's not skip this.

p.s. wow, what an off-topic.

 

[Godotelli]

Guess Sunderland are better than us as well then

 

[Kanouté]

sunderland is a "smaller" team. no title contender.

there's playing against chelsea, liverpool...

and there's playing against sunderland, west ham...

as long as it's not the end of the season, title contender teams doesn't take these games as serious as they do against the other title contenders. that's a factor shouldn't simply be ignored.

 

[amineken22]

The league is won against smaller teams, and City did just that. The current format rewards the best team in the country, not just the one that dominates the "big dogs".
I mean, at the end of the day there is 20 teams, if you're only able to win some big games and then fuck up in others, you just don't deserve the title. Simple as that.

The play-off format depends more on luck on it's final stages, look at QPR they weren't better than Derby in a regular season, but they managed to beat them in ONE GAME and now they'll be a premier league team next year, that doesn't sound good or right to me.

 

[Kanouté]

The league is won against smaller teams, and City did just that. The current format rewards the best team in the country, not just the one that dominates the "big dogs".
I mean, at the end of the day there is 20 teams, if you're only able to win some big games and then fuck up in others, you just don't deserve the title. Simple as that.

The play-off format depends more on luck on it's final stages, look at QPR they weren't better than Derby in a regular season, but they managed to beat them in ONE GAME and now they'll be a premier league team next year, that doesn't sound good or right to me.

that's your opinion. if they beat the other team with no ref help, they deserved to promote. and that's mine.

fyi, I never said Chelsea deserved the title (again, under this format).

 

[YoungGun_UK]

I disagree about that. Ronaldo is a great finisher and a great athlete and someone you can count on, but the players that have broken the important matches have been Di Maria, Ramos and Bale, with the help of Modric.

Would Real be Champion without Cristiano? In my oppinion they could perfectly win. Without Ramos and Di Maria? No way. I'm talking about the Champions League, not the whole season, and sometimes statistics tell only a part of the story.

Goals are overrated. Yes, I know it sounds silly. But this season, for example, Messi has scored 40 goals and has been one of the worse players for the team in the last 3 months. Cristiano and Messi are so good that even in their worse moments they can score aplenty. But what really makes a team stand out are the people who break the first lines of pressure, the ones that create the danger and the ones who can avoid it. To this respect, I think Ramos and Di Maria were by far the best players of Real.

I like you Drekkard but your point fell apart for me with that.

 

[gomito#10]

I disagree about that. Ronaldo is a great finisher and a great athlete and someone you can count on, but the players that have broken the important matches have been Di Maria, Ramos and Bale, with the help of Modric.



Would Real be Champion without Cristiano? In my oppinion they could perfectly win. Without Ramos and Di Maria? No way. I'm talking about the Champions League, not the whole season, and sometimes statistics tell only a part of the story.



Goals are overrated. Yes, I know it sounds silly. But this season, for example, Messi has scored 40 goals and has been one of the worse players for the team in the last 3 months. Cristiano and Messi are so good that even in their worse moments they can score aplenty. But what really makes a team stand out are the people who break the first lines of pressure, the ones that create the danger and the ones who can avoid it. To this respect, I think Ramos and Di Maria were by far the best players of Real.

Di Maria is allowed to flourish because of Ronaldo, pretty obvious that is the case.

 

[Kanouté]

as an example, you can take their away game vs dortmund this year(the only starter real missed was ronaldo). I know it's just one game but ronaldo doesn't miss a lot in a season either. it's the only game he missed in the ko stage and the only one real lost (or didn't win). maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not. of course, let's take nothing away from klopp's team, the man is a genius.

teams do benefit just the existence of their superstar, even when he doesn't really perform in a game. that's why most coaches don't usually sub them off even if they play shit. some of them don't have the balls to do that indeed but that's not the main reason. they(superstars) are always a threat for the opponent and they can easily create space for their teammates because they can always drag multiple opponents marking them. you know, you can't just quit marking the opponent superstar saying "hey he isn't doing well tonight". he can punish you anytime and every opponent knows that. so their existence is crucial, I don't think real would win the cl without ronaldo, neither barcelona2011 would without messi nor chelsea without drogba.

I can even understand people who would say xabi alonso is most important player in real. he's one of my two fav midfielders with zizou, he's the brain, the anchor of real. take nothing away from them but saying di maria, modric etc are more important... wow.

 

[ss4_goku]

So much hate in this thread....let me fuel in some more...haha

League rewards the most consistent team regardless of competition. Cup rewards the teams that can play under pressure and win it in the brink. Different formats, different competitions, basically incomparable. The best teams are the ones that wins both. Consistent, yet can take it up a notch when it matters.

Now to keep it on topic, here's my few cents on the final.

It was clear that the top three from Real were not at their top form in the game. lots of missed chances, lots of desire, yet it's not at the level that they should be performing at. You can see the determination from C. Ron in how he's everywhere, yet u can see he's not fit in how he's almost invisible with the ball.

The MVP for the match was Di Maria to me. he was able to flourish so well in the second half was also because C. Ron was playing more in the middle and let's be honest, Athletico never allowed C. Ron any room to play (which was the right strategy). Ramos was great in scoring the header, but the defense was a little weak (all 4 of them). Marcelo brought a nice spark of attack to push the tired athletico defense and was able to start breaking some cracks in their form. How as for the celebrations...I'm not sure if it was necessary, but a goal is a goal, no matter if its PK, if its 1-1, 4-1...it should be celebrated as a goal.

As for the tricks that C. Ron did in the final minutes...I don't see a problem as they weren't as much about show-boating, but about keeping the ball and possession to win. Each team/player has their own way of it, and I thought it was ok. AT least the match was still being played unlike some teams that would resort to rolling around on the floor or making a small niggle into something bigger to stop the match.

I thought it was a great match, lots of drama, lots of attack, lots of fun to watch and I'm very happy to have witnessed the game.

 

[Lami]

Re: Ronaldo's celebration. Thought he celebrated because he broke Messi's record. Now he has Raul's record to break still, no?

Guess Sunderland are better than us as well then

That's a no brainer

Goals are overrated. Yes, I know it sounds silly. But this season, for example, Messi has scored 40 goals and has been one of the worse players for the team in the last 3 months. Cristiano and Messi are so good that even in their worse moments they can score aplenty. But what really makes a team stand out are the people who break the first lines of pressure, the ones that create the danger and the ones who can avoid it. To this respect, I think Ramos and Di Maria were by far the best players of Real.

I like you Drekkard but your point fell apart for me with that.

If you read it in it's context you'll understand what he means, but it's when you take it out of context like that it's a different meaning altogether. I'm with drekkard on this.

 

[Kanouté]

Re: Ronaldo's celebration. Thought he celebrated because he broke Messi's record. Now he has Raul's record to break still, no?

the record was 14 goals not 16(he already broke it at allianz arena). and it was shared between messi and altafini, not just messi's.

the irony that messi scored those 14 goals in 2012 and they didn't win the cl (in fact he scored like 90 goals then, yet the only trophy they won was copa del rey).
now real wins the cl, ronaldo scoring 17. we all suddenly start to question the meaning of goals. say whatever you like but it sickens me.

League rewards the most consistent team regardless of competition. Cup rewards the teams that can play under pressure and win it in the brink. Different formats, different competitions, basically incomparable. The best teams are the ones that wins both. Consistent, yet can take it up a notch when it matters.

league format is a lazy one. it's good for ranking teams to their classes. like the contenders class, upper-mid class, lower-mid class, worst class. it's kinda natural. but it's not (always) good for ranking the teams in each class accurately. as you said, it has no regard for the competition between those teams sometimes.

anyway, I won't keep on talking about this. I got no authority to make any change. league format is lazy, so am I.

 

[drekkard]

we all suddenly start to question the meaning of goals. say whatever you like but it sickens me.

I have always questioned the meaning of goals as the only stat to count someone's performance, so if it was aimed to my sentence, you should reconsider your sarcasm. To me the real way to value Messi's performance, for example, is the number of assists and chances he creates for other, not goals. He scored 40 goals this season, but played poorly for months. And the same should be able to apply to Ronaldo. He played poorly the last 2 months (for his standards), despite goal records.

Besides, the stats you mention precisely show how the number of goals itself doesn't mean that much. Of course it's a great record and shows how great was Cristiano performance in the qualifying and first knockout round. But numbers don't tell the whole story.

In the most important stages, I think Ronaldo underperformed (compared to his incredible level in the first months) and it was Ramos and Di Maria who really made the team a champion one in semifinals and the final. And this is a very good sign for Real, who have a great squad (and the most expensive ever, by the way) and could be the first champion to retain the title if they keep this level of efficiency.

 

[Kanouté]

in my honest opinion, goals are overrated indeed. but it's such regarding the average fan. (kind of) an intelligent football fan knows that every position in football has its "goal-like" attributes. goalkeeper has crucial saves, defender has successful tackles, holding midfielder has interceptions, playmakers have key passes or chances created, wingers have dribblings or key crosses etc etc and strikers have goals. assist is mostly a dumb stat, though (not to belittle messi's record, he creates more than just assists).

now about the goals matter, if you really think so (which I believe you do indeed), there was no more perfect time to talk about it than in 2012 with messi's stat and barcelona's season(trophy) there. but you preferred to ignore it.

I'm not saying you should talk down messi's brilliance. of course there are other attributes in football too. messi and ronaldo are the two most exceptional scorers in near history. but you start to open up your mind about goals, skipping messi's 2012, and now ronaldo winning something with real, it's just not right. for once again, I'm not saying you shouldn't make an assesment on one of these two, I'm talking about "goals are overrated" thing. simply, I agree with it but your(or anybody not a fan of real or ronaldo) timing is the wrong thing here.

I also rate players like di maria, modric, alonso very, very highly (I don't really rate ramos as a center back though a la david luiz). but messi and ronaldo are simply exceptional. as I stated above, even purely their existence on the field can be key for their teams at times. so I would talk about other attributes in their game when making an assessment but imo, no need to question the goal statistic at this very moment. any other time but not right now. not classy.

 

[Lami]

Ah, I get it now.

It's just a timing thing. Sensitive timing, that is.

 

[fd1972uk]

Glad Real won, as they're my Spanish team (possibly fav Euro Team), but Ronaldo, dear god, what a twat.

I also saw a picture of the team celebrating in the changing room or something and he wasn't there, wonder if he had his own solo photoshoot with his own little trophy, lol.

Great player, major tit.


FD

 

[Review]

How can you say that? I am not a Ronaldo fan but if wasn't he, Real would never be the Champions League champion!

I wouldn't worry too much about the stuff ppl say about Ronaldo. The guy is an easy target and I'm sure you know why. I thought he had a great tournament.

 

[miguell]

I wouldn't worry too much about the stuff ppl say about Ronaldo. The guy is an easy target and I'm sure you know why. I thought he had a great tournament.

 

[drekkard]

now about the goals matter, if you really think so (which I believe you do indeed), there was no more perfect time to talk about it than in 2012 with messi's stat and barcelona's season(trophy) there. but you preferred to ignore it.

I'm not saying you should talk down messi's brilliance. of course there are other attributes in football too. messi and ronaldo are the two most exceptional scorers in near history. but you start to open up your mind about goals, skipping messi's 2012, and now ronaldo winning something with real, it's just not right. for once again, I'm not saying you shouldn't make an assesment on one of these two, I'm talking about "goals are overrated" thing. simply, I agree with it but your(or anybody not a fan of real or ronaldo) timing is the wrong thing here.

You have a problem of imagining things, man. I didn't ignore Messi's 2012 for the sole reason I was not taking account of everything that has happened before in the world of football and it wasn't the object of the debate. I thought we were talking about current season Champions League.

But for your interest, here are some things you should carefully read:

- As I said before in case you ignored it, I said Ronaldo had an overall brilliant season. I never said Ronaldo had a bad tournament at all. Read again. He had a brilliant qualifying and first round. Then his performance was somewhat poorer in semis and the final (again, compared to his standards, and most probably because of injuries). Overall, he had a great torunament. But FOR ME, THE KEY PLAYERS were Ramos and Di Maria and hence why I think sometimes stats don't tell the whole picture. How can you transform this into a Messi-Ronaldo situation is due to your imagination or your personal grudges against me.

- But let's talk Messi's 2012, because you seem to be a bit obsessed with it. He scored what.. 70-80 goals? Well, that's an amazing record. Did he win the tournament? Nope, Barcelona lost against Chelsea and he missed a pen. See here? He scored aplenty but he failed in the most critical moment. That's just what I'm talking again. The number of goals doesn't tell the whole picture. He can't be considered the best player of the tournament. Other than that, Messi had an extraordinary season because besides breaking the scoring record, he also was the best La Liga assister and one of the best assisters in the Champions League. He also won 3 "minor" trophies (European Supercup, International Cup and Copa del Rey, and scored in all of them). So, when a player scores 70 goals AND does nearly 30 assists in a single season, then you can consider he had, personally, a brilliant season even if he didn't win the major trophies? Did he deserved the Ballon d'or? It's debatable. In my personal oppinion he deserved it more than when people like Cannavaro won it.

- As you can prove reading the Barcelona thred you posted on lately, you'll see that I consider Messi did a terrible season despite scoring 40 goals. See? I'm just being coherent, you like it or not.

Of course "goals are overrated" is more of a philosopher sentence than a scientific statement but it's no surprise people like you try to convert posts in which I'm congratulating and praising Real Madrid players to something like a barcelona-real battle, which is not as I have no problems considering Real the fair winner, Ronaldo the best player of the first stages and Ramos and Di Maria the best players of the latest stages.

I wouldn't worry too much about the stuff ppl say about Ronaldo. The guy is an easy target and I'm sure you know why. I thought he had a great tournament.

Well, I don't think anyone said he did a bad tournament at all. Jesus christ! He was brilliant, but some people think he was specifically brilliant in the first part of the tournament, while on the last stages other people were even better than him! It's not a negative, come on!

My personal MVP of the Champions League: Ramos
Best team of Champions League: Real Madrid
Best coach of Champions League: Simeone
My personal MVP of the whoel footballing season: Ronaldo / Ramos / Diego Costa / Courtois

What I really don't like from Cristiano is his attitude, and that was my only critic. That celebration was overdone, at the wrong moment, and lacking respect. I also think he shouldn't have done silly tricks in the sideline and it was a bit offensive. He hadn't done them for 119 minutes, so why then with 3-1? To keep the ball? Don't think so, the players were meters away. Of course, that's open to debate. Knowing the guy, I think he did it to showboat and get a bit the focus in a match where he didn't have too much weight (hence the overkill celebration later). But I know that's my opinion and you can differ. No one knows, only himself.

 

[Kanouté]

wow. I just tried to say it was not nice. not that I disagreed with it. you're the one who imagined all those bs and you're the one who carefully need to read what I posted on this topic. but I see. it's very obvious that I just proved that how hypocrite you're and that's why you're in full-attack mode again. you're purely a disgusting person.

I don't know why I did that mistake to take a barça fanboy's nonsense serious once again.

 

[bebo]

We all know the history btw you guys... Football debate wars!

 

[Review]

Well, I don't think anyone said he did a bad tournament at all. Jesus christ! He was brilliant, but some people think he was specifically brilliant in the first part of the tournament, while on the last stages other people were even better than him! It's not a negative, come on!

My personal MVP of the Champions League: Ramos
Best team of Champions League: Real Madrid
Best coach of Champions League: Simeone
My personal MVP of the whoel footballing season: Ronaldo / Ramos / Diego Costa / Courtois

What I really don't like from Cristiano is his attitude, and that was my only critic. That celebration was overdone, at the wrong moment, and lacking respect. I also think he shouldn't have done silly tricks in the sideline and it was a bit offensive. He hadn't done them for 119 minutes, so why then with 3-1? To keep the ball? Don't think so, the players were meters away. Of course, that's open to debate. Knowing the guy, I think he did it to showboat and get a bit the focus in a match where he didn't have too much weight (hence the overkill celebration later). But I know that's my opinion and you can differ. No one knows, only himself.

Sup Alexis. Pretty much agree with your choices although I would prob have CR and Ramos as CO-MVPs. Ronaldo will prob get the official UEFA gong if he has a decent WC and nobody else lights it up. My opinion of Ronaldo is that I'm not really bothered by his over the top celebrations/showmanship anymore as it has happened so many times I've kinda gotten used to it. Whether its pointing to his knee, counting his goals or whatever. I find it to be pure comedy. That said, I don't see it as much anymore since this is the first year where I haven't been able to watch Copa and La Liga matches. About his attitude. I don't think the guy will ever change. Its just his DNA. At least he gives us something to talk about no?

 

[drekkard]

there was no more perfect time to talk about it than in 2012 with messi's stat and barcelona's season(trophy) there. but you preferred to ignore it.

How can I ignore something we were not even debating openly? Who's using hipocresy here?

but you start to open up your mind about goals, skipping messi's 2012, and now ronaldo winning something with real, it's just not right.

"Start to open your mind"? Have you read any of my posts in Barcelona thread in the last... years?

Skipping Messi's 2012? Aren't we debating this season's Ronaldo and Real performance? Why all of a sudden it's so important to you to talk about Messi 2012?

I'm talking about "goals are overrated" thing. simply, I agree with it but your(or anybody not a fan of real or ronaldo) timing is the wrong thing here.
...
any other time but not right now. not classy.

So, the moment Cristiano brakes the record and wins the trophy is NOT the moment to comment about it? But, on the other side, it's my fault for not talking straight about Messi's 2012? Now it's the time to talk about 2012 but not about 2014?

You're such a big hypocrite yourself. And about lacking class, I didn't say you're a disgusting person. Such a disgusting thing to say.

 

[Lami]

wow. I just tried to say it was not nice. not that I disagreed with it. you're the one who imagined all those bs and you're the one who carefully need to read what I posted on this topic. but I see. it's very obvious that I just proved that how hypocrite you're and that's why you're in full-attack mode again. you're purely a disgusting person.

I don't know why I did that mistake to take a barça fanboy's nonsense serious once again.

What are you on about?

The guy just explained himself in detail and this is all you had to say?

 

[amineken22]

Man, I'm gutted I missed such an Epic debate. There is one obvious thing though Kanouté is wrong for calling Alexis a "disgusting person" that was just uncalled for. No need to take it there guys, it's just a disscussion, getting personal is never the right thing to do.