ZeroTheHero
Banned
amagad... the WC is over, Germany won and Messi is the best player in the world.
Close thread.
Close thread.
FIFA World Cup Brasil 2014
- Thread starter gabe.paul.logan
- Start date
we7god
Kreisklassen-Profi
Sorry, but that is not correct.
Messi = 4 goals + 1 assists
Müller = 5 Goals + 3 assists
But I don't have a problem with Messi given that award.
Me personally would have given it to J. Rodriguez, Müller or Robben in advance, but Messi is also ok. He is vital for this team and if it was not him, Argentina would never have left groupstage, I guess.
And in the End all people who are critizizing the descission by the FIFA - it is given by the media and some kind of "fan"-jury.
As I mentioned I am fine with this decission.
sauce
Warriors
This may not be the thread for this, may be 2 weeks old article, may be a strange view of football, but still worth a look
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
we7god
Kreisklassen-Profi
Messi was, is still and will always be one of the greatest player of all times in this sport - even if he would never win the world cup; this is really the one and only trohphy missing.
Maybe the hype around Maradona was much bigger, but I prefer Messi miles before Maradona, because he seems to be solid grounded with both feet on the earth and not with his heads in the sky.
Nowadays if you see Maradona, he is nothing more like the his shadow of the past and a clown for all media. Messi I think will never end as such a muppet.
Maybe the hype around Maradona was much bigger, but I prefer Messi miles before Maradona, because he seems to be solid grounded with both feet on the earth and not with his heads in the sky.
Nowadays if you see Maradona, he is nothing more like the his shadow of the past and a clown for all media. Messi I think will never end as such a muppet.
LuizaoCR
Anime Fan & PES 6 Player
If you see again some of the matches played by our NT, Navas wasn't so exposed by his defense, mostly in the group stage as fatigue could be seen in the last 2 matches, but conceiding only 2 goals (1 of them was a penalty) against powerhouses like Uruguay, Italy, England and Netherlands, proved that the defensive line was outstanding for a small team.
This is my opinion about Neuer's golden glove, what I have posted is mostly what in Costa Rica is thought about the designation.
Ipswich69
Banned
- 25 July 2011
I agree about Maradona's personality and Messi's humility, but based on my experience watching him play in the 80's, I think Maradona would have risen to the occasion and gotten Argentina the cup yesterday. Maradona was a more complete player than Messi. Messi looked lost and lackadaisical at times throughout this tournament without the Barcelona system around him. I'm not saying Messi isn't a great player, he is, but Maradona was very special in his prime.
gerd
Retired Footballer
I don't agree Ipswich.
Maradonna got his finest hour in international football.
IMO international football is not of the same qualify of club football. Look at this WC for example. Look at some of the defenders who played a very good WC: Daniël Van Buyten, Mario Yepes, Ron Vlaar...they are hasbeens in club football....is this not an indication about the difference between club football and international football ?
Maradonna got his finest hour in international football.
IMO international football is not of the same qualify of club football. Look at this WC for example. Look at some of the defenders who played a very good WC: Daniël Van Buyten, Mario Yepes, Ron Vlaar...they are hasbeens in club football....is this not an indication about the difference between club football and international football ?
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
i'm not really interested to partecipate in yet another messi\maradona debate, coz they honestly bore the hell out of me, but, purely for the sake of precision, i gotta correct u here gerd.
it's exactly the other way around. what maradona achieved in his international carreer is nothing compared to what he achieved in his club carreer. infact one could make a pretty convincing argument about maradona's club carreer being far more impressive than messi's club carrer.
what messi has done in barcelona is absolutely amazing. but what maradona has done in napoli is simply unprecedented.
i'm not trying to argue maradona's case here. i can't tell if maradona was a greater player than messi and i don't care. but, being a live-witness of maradona's amazing carreer in napoli, i feel i should tell u guys this much: ever since i watch football (late '80s) no one has done anything remotely comparable to what maradona did in napoli.
also the personality/intelligence argument is irrelevant. maradona is a tool, a complete idiot. not only messi but hundreds of football players out there are much smarter than him. but that doesn't say anything about his stature as a football player.
andy18cruz
Sth, sth ... dark side
Maradona in this day and age wouldn't done the same that he did in 86 (which was truly amazing). The defensive schemes have evolved in such ways that the perfomance of a individual player is far less impactfull. Zone-marking, higher lines and the huge leap on stamina and "ground-covering" that players have today would make the life of a player like Maradona very difficult.
Messi can only be impactful in a way, making the ocassional dash or magic play. No one can expect a player to carry a team like in those days.
Messi can only be impactful in a way, making the ocassional dash or magic play. No one can expect a player to carry a team like in those days.
Ipswich69
Banned
- 25 July 2011
What stood out for me yesterday in regards to Messi was the fact that every outfield player on that Argentinian team, with the exception of Messi, was soaked with sweat from head to toe. The occasional dash doesn't cut it for me in the World Cup final.
gerd
Retired Footballer
That is typically English, my friend.
Work is rated higher than genius or technical skill.
Some players never look exhausted, others immediately...well, as Ben said, the millionth debate about who is best: Messi or Maradonna is a litle bit useless.
Ionly felt compelled to defend Messi because the reactions on the award he got are over the top.
I tend to agree that he wasn't the best player in the tournament, but such awards are useless in a team sport like football.
andy18cruz
Sth, sth ... dark side
I understand your point, but those awards only make sense in team sports. Individual sports the winner is the best, no need for any award. In a team sport, you want to highlight a individual regarless of his team.
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
it's actually the other way around. football's evolution over the last 20 years determined a clear focus shift from defense to offense (as proven by all scoring stats in the major european leagues). the introduction of zonal marking didn't make scoring more difficult. it made it much easier.
in the late 80s \early '90s (when maradona was in napoli) more than half the teams in serie a used to play catenaccio-based systems (the most defensive oriented system in history). maradona had to deal every week with a double marking...... and when i say double marking, i'm not talking about what we pass for "double marking" today (which isn't real double marking)... i'm actually talking about 2 guys strictly on man marking duties for the entire game (plus the libero).
and as for high defensive lines, sacchi's milan (napoli's main competitors tthose days) displayed the the highest defensive line in modern football and the most perfect offside machine up till today.
there's a simple scientific way to determine when (during which period) and where (in which league) it was more difficult to score and to provide assists: the average goals per game ratio. during the 1987/1991 period (when maradona used to play in napoli) serie a marked a 2.12 goals per match ratio (the 4th lowest ratio in the history of european football).
just to put things in perspective la liga had a 2.75 goals per match ratio this season (which is one of the highest ratios in history).
i know the gap between 2.12 and 2.75 doesn't seem that much, but, consider that the lowest ratio ever marked in the top european leagues was 2.0 (serie a - seasons '76/'81)
long story short today is the best era to be playing in for an offensive player, and la liga is certainly one of the most fun leagues to be playing in for an offensive player..... whereas serie a during the 70s, 80s and early 90s was the most difficult place and time in history for an offensive player.
again, i'm not trying to argue maradona's case here. i'm merely providing u with the most accurate infos.
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bebo
Looking for a Manager
What stood out for me is Ozil played his best game in a Germany shirt. To think most Germans think he`s shite . Argentina played extremely well despite those (3) missed chances Higuain ,Messi and Palacio had. They started to slightly defend more towards the end. I think Lowe`s substitution was the most vital tactical move to lift the cup. The (fresh legs)...WC winners
we7god
Kreisklassen-Profi
Comparing two players of different aera does not make much sense imho.
ZeroTheHero
Banned
What the world could and should learn from Messi & Ronaldinho
Keep hugging even if you're on different teams.
FYI, Maradona also likes to appreciate skilled players, regardless of team & country.
Keep hugging even if you're on different teams.
FYI, Maradona also likes to appreciate skilled players, regardless of team & country.
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andy18cruz
Sth, sth ... dark side
it's actually the other way around. football's evolution over the last 20 years determined a clear focus shift from defense to offense (as proven by all scoring stats in the major european leagues). the introduction of zonal marking didn't make scoring more difficult. it made it much easier.
in the late 80s \early '90s (when maradona was in napoli) more than half the teams in serie a used to play catenaccio-based systems (the most defensive oriented system in history). maradona had to deal every week with a double marking...... and when i say double marking, i'm not talking about what we pass for "double marking" today (which isn't real double marking)... i'm actually talking about 2 guys strictly on man marking duties for the entire game (plus the libero).
and as for high defensive lines, sacchi's milan (napoli's main competitors tthose days) displayed the the highest defensive line in modern football and the most perfect offside machine up till today.
there's a simple scientific way to determine when (during which period) and where (in which league) it was more difficult to score and to provide assists: the average goals per game ratio. during the 1987/1991 period (when maradona used to play in napoli) serie a marked a 2.12 goals per match ratio (the 4th lowest ratio in the history of european football).
just to put things in perspective la liga had a 2.75 goals per match ratio this season (which is one of the highest ratios in history).
i know the gap between 2.12 and 2.75 doesn't seem that much, but, consider that the lowest ratio ever marked in the top european leagues was 2.0 (serie a - seasons '76/'81)
long story short today is the best era to be playing in for an offensive player, and la liga is certainly one of the most fun leagues to be playing in for an offensive player..... whereas serie a during the 70s, 80s and early 90s was the most difficult place and time in history for an offensive player.
again, i'm not trying to argue maradona's case here. i'm merely providing u with the most accurate infos.
Offenses gain more strength not because zone-marking is weaker compared to man-marking, but rather because the quality of the pitches allows for more passes, ball on the ground plays, stricter refs, and the evolution of the balls in itself. Lighter balls allows for more goals. No need super strong kicker to score from outside. Of course offences are much stronger than before, but that wasn't my point in the previous post.
Man marking today is impossible. Germany, for example, makes tones of positional switches near the box. It’s hard for a zone coverage team to keep track of their movement. Imagine a man coverage one.
Today you cannot run miles with the ball, think, and raise your head to see your teammates, etc. in the last third of the pitch. There's simply no time. And this, with only a defensive midfielder. Not even two like there was in the 80's, 90's. There is no coincidence that there are fewer true number 10(OMF, trequartista) in the game today. The creative role is assumed by a CMF, who needs space to set the tempo of the team. Pirlo in the 80 would not need to be conversed to the role that he plays today.
Maradona today would be a great player? No doubt. He was all the tools to be successful today. The best one? Maybe. But he could no longer carry a team to victory like he did with Argentina and Napoli. Defences cover too much ground, the game is 3 times more fast. Take Argentina for example. If you want to take Messi out of the game, you can. I can put 2 guys around him and be effective. That what the Netherlands did. De Jong was on man marking duties and another player was going for Messi if he was in his zone. But you basically are give up your offensive game. If Sabella had put it Messi on the right, forcing De Jong to go with him (and occupying Martins Indi also), and then put Enzo Pérez behind Higuain to occupy the space left vacant by De Jong, he would've won the game like that. He didn't take advantage of the effective two man midfield that the Dutch present him. But Van Gaal knew he wouldn't.
If you would apply the same principles (even with a real double marking)in 80's, Messi or Maradona would run (mostly jog) with ball, dribble one, two players, flexing to the middle and shoot or pass. And this all game long. Today no player has the stamina to do that.
That's my take. But I accept that you view things in a different way.
Ipswich69
Banned
- 25 July 2011
Oh dear. I suppose that's why the same opinion is shared by a lot people from all corners of the globe. Those bloody broad brushes, hey.
Rantboy
International
- 27 December 2002
- Fluminense FC / Arsenal
FIFA is so clueless that they gave the Golden Ball award to Messi, while he didn't even featured in the Castrol first 11 of the World Cup!
Like I said, this is merely a consolation prize to a magician of a player. All the reaction against it is like a storm in a cup. This accolade is rather meaningless in a World Cup Final context. I don't care much about it, tbh.
As for the Golden Glove, it has to be Neuer. The man has been outstanding throughout the tournament. He's miles ahead really.
Navas is a great keeper, but the stats alone wouldn't justify. If it was based on numbers purely I think I'd give it to Tim Howard - the man made 16 saves in one match alone.
Like I said, this is merely a consolation prize to a magician of a player. All the reaction against it is like a storm in a cup. This accolade is rather meaningless in a World Cup Final context. I don't care much about it, tbh.
As for the Golden Glove, it has to be Neuer. The man has been outstanding throughout the tournament. He's miles ahead really.
Navas is a great keeper, but the stats alone wouldn't justify. If it was based on numbers purely I think I'd give it to Tim Howard - the man made 16 saves in one match alone.
cfdh_edmundo
Maverick
- 30 December 2002
it's actually the other way around. football's evolution over the last 20 years determined a clear focus shift from defense to offense (as proven by all scoring stats in the major european leagues). the introduction of zonal marking didn't make scoring more difficult. it made it much easier.
in the late 80s \early '90s (when maradona was in napoli) more than half the teams in serie a used to play catenaccio-based systems (the most defensive oriented system in history). maradona had to deal every week with a double marking...... and when i say double marking, i'm not talking about what we pass for "double marking" today (which isn't real double marking)... i'm actually talking about 2 guys strictly on man marking duties for the entire game (plus the libero).
and as for high defensive lines, sacchi's milan (napoli's main competitors tthose days) displayed the the highest defensive line in modern football and the most perfect offside machine up till today.
there's a simple scientific way to determine when (during which period) and where (in which league) it was more difficult to score and to provide assists: the average goals per game ratio. during the 1987/1991 period (when maradona used to play in napoli) serie a marked a 2.12 goals per match ratio (the 4th lowest ratio in the history of european football).
just to put things in perspective la liga had a 2.75 goals per match ratio this season (which is one of the highest ratios in history).
i know the gap between 2.12 and 2.75 doesn't seem that much, but, consider that the lowest ratio ever marked in the top european leagues was 2.0 (serie a - seasons '76/'81)
long story short today is the best era to be playing in for an offensive player, and la liga is certainly one of the most fun leagues to be playing in for an offensive player..... whereas serie a during the 70s, 80s and early 90s was the most difficult place and time in history for an offensive player.
again, i'm not trying to argue maradona's case here. i'm merely providing u with the most accurate infos.
Totally agree, and would also say that Serie A in Maradonas day was the best league in the world at the time and was also a league full of superb defenders. As well as that Maradonas era afforeded players zero protection in terms of tackles, like when the Bilbao player nearly ended his career when he was at Barcelona.
Shows his great character, this is the best and biggest player Germany had in the last ten years.
- Thread starter
- #3,832
gabe.paul.logan
Retired Footballer
thats one sweaty chest
Chuny
-
- 11 December 2007
Shows his great character, this is the best and biggest player Germany had in the last ten years.
Amazing.
Schwenie is top notch. He's been top notch for a few years now.
Just imagine a Mascherano+Schweinsteiger sharing the midfield for the same team... My ankle is already bleeding and my knees are shaking.
Let me add this one too, posted by Götze himself ("Genius @leomessi #partofgoetze"):
There's so much I want to say, but I'm still hurting badly. When I recover it probably won't matter anymore. So I'll just say Congratulations Germany.
Lucky for me, I did say pretty much everything on my previous posts, one day before the final, here: http://www.evo-web.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=2938220&postcount=3613 and specially here http://www.evo-web.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=2938771&postcount=3646
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Chuny
-
- 11 December 2007
Oh and by the way, about this old and boring Messi V.S Maradona endless discussion, you may find this VERY interesting: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-is-better-than-maradona-but-maybe-not-pele/
Chuny
-
- 11 December 2007
BTW: WTF is this? https://twitter.com/FifNdhs
bebo
Looking for a Manager
Shows his great character, this is the best and biggest player Germany had in the last ten years.
sympathy card. All I see is a winner giving 'Sorry for your lost hugs' great character mmm
Maybe I`m older and wiser or foolish. I rather see the losing players going and giving congratulation hugs to the winner. Its harder to congratulate ,then say sorry things didn`t go your way!
David Luiz went beyond during James post interview , he interrupted and spoke how amazing James is and said he`s the best player in the tournament ESPN Deportes . Now, this was after he was pre-labeled the hero for scoring (2) goals.
ZeroTheHero
Banned
Spot on Bebo, for this compilation to have any worth it would need at least a few similar shots where Schweinsteiger has lost. The point of showing Messi (and Maradona) and Ronaldhino like that was mostly to get you guys to bury the hatches and let this WC die down with dignity. If Brazil and Argentina can, everybody should be able to.
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gerd
Retired Footballer
It seems the English press is very, very disappointed with our national team, first the Guardian (in the 'who lost during this worldcup' as only country) and now FourFourTwo.
The onlyexplanation is that the same as alwaus with the English press: they believe their own hypes..;Belgium was never as good as most 'specialists' in Englandgave them credit for...
I hope they are written off for good now, so that they can play their matches in peace...
The onlyexplanation is that the same as alwaus with the English press: they believe their own hypes..;Belgium was never as good as most 'specialists' in Englandgave them credit for...
I hope they are written off for good now, so that they can play their matches in peace...