Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

[amineken22]

Both of Juventus penalties were wrong calls tbf. On the 1st one Maicon was using his hands to cover his face and then he rushed out of the box when the freekick was taken, so, when the "impact" happened it was already outside, clearly not a pen, and on the 2nd one Pogba's dive is kinda obvious.

As for Manolas:
He was on an unbelievable form and practically kept Morata on his pocket, Morata clearly went for a revenge tackle there (you can't claim any different, you just can't) Manolas was out of order for hitting back, he might've deserved a card there, but I'm quite septic about it. The whole situation after was kinda unnecessary and useless tbh.

... After the 2-2 Roma pussied out, so Juve deserved the win and Bonucci topped it off with a brilliant goal. I do agree that Rocchi was out of his mind, totally lost control of the match, but both teams were screwed multiple times.

It's not that Roma chicken'd out, it's actually Juventus who kept calm (after Caceres was subbed) and slowed down the pace of the game until they had total control (that was quite impressive actually). After Totti, Pjanic and Iturbe were burned out, Roma didn't have anyone to rely on... expect for Gervinho (we all know how terrible he can be).

A fair result would've been a draw, as both teams deserved a win at a moment or another throughout the game.

 

[wolly1979]

second penalty for juventus is at 46.35

refs has given 1 min of extra time...so ...no penalty ..no goal

 

[wolly1979]

first penalty it's outside the area

 

[S-NipE]

When seeing both images it is obvious to me, that -if the action itself was worth a foul according to the rules- it is a clear penalty, because both incidents are ON the line and the line is part of the box. Therefore a penalty decision would be correct. I just can't say, if the decisions are correct, the pictures only show one moment, but nothing more.

The arm of the defender on the last picture looks like being in a place where it should not be. If an arm is near the face and hit by the ball, the rule is clear, it's a bookable offence. And I'm not even sure, if such a thing like "protection with your arm" is anywhere written down in the rules...

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

If only Juventus could get refs like that in Europe they might even go far in the Champions League

 

[Epsi]

I don't know who's worse, Juventini celebrating the win (overall deserved attitude), or other people (even Inter or Milan supporters, not just Romanisti) complaining about the referee. It's football, after all.

 

[jihado86]

judging by those pics :

1st pen : the touch isn't even inside, remember, the ball must entirely be in the line, the line is a part of the area. PLUS, it doesn't count as a handball, as Maicon was protecting his body, his hand was stuck to his chest.

2nd pen, a dive or not, the contact was outside.

3rd goal, I don't see the full picture, but if Vidal was behind the last deffender, then he was blocking the sight of the GK, so it's an off-side.

 

[gerd]

If only Juventus could get refs like that in Europe they might even go far in the Champions League

That is a thought i've had for a while now, and this without judging what happened in the Roma match, i haven't seen that match at all...

But it is quite strange that Juventus are irresistable in Serie A and very average in the CL (whereas other Italian teams aren't doing that bad at all, so it isn't the weakness of the league).

Anyway, in the past Juventus have proven that they like to cheat...and the owners aren't exactly remorsefull about the Moggi years and the drugs before that... I know that this doesn't prove anything about the present...but i for one have strong reservations.

This said, Juventus certainly aren't without merits...accordingtheir success only to refs is a couple of bridges too far...let'ssay that i'm not a believer...

 

[ImpossibleYesbutitsTrue]

The second penalty for Juve is a wrong choice, Pogba hardly makes it into the box, he is struggling already and is touching the line with his one foot, the other foot is touched slightly by Pjanic who is lying on the ground outside the box (bit silly raising his leg), but off course such a decision is for Juve in such games, if not absolutely clear, lets make it clear.

The message by this decision is, go run into the box and try your luck mate, things like that are destroying the game.
And by the way, the time was over already, this scene never should make it into discussion, and the ball was not on the penalty spot at all, Totti tries to speak to the referee, who kindly tells him to f#ck off.

Totti's yellow card after his goal is a bad joke, Bonucci runs to the referee complaining about whatnot and Totti is given the card, for basically celebrating his goal, wow.
Garcia is send of directly after one gesture, sure.

And then the last goal, clearly active off-side, the roma bench players were mobbed as well.

Serie A as usual, I guess, give them the title already, internal they count already 33. 34..

First two penalties were right calls, the third wasn't. After the 2-2 Roma pussied out, so Juve deserved the win and Bonucci topped it off with a brilliant goal. I do agree that Rocchi was out of his mind, totally lost control of the match, but both teams were screwed multiple times.

First, you write that Juve get a false penalty, and the 3-2 is false as well, then you write Juve deserved the win, disapproving yourself, wow.

Regarding the third goal, Skorupski was never going to save it:

Oh ok, lets make own rules especially for Juve once again, he wouldn't be able to save it anywaaay , guess what, this is why this rule exists, typical Juve fan relativism here.

 

[Damjan]

Juventus deserved to win overall, deserving a win doesn't always mean scoring a set amount of goals. Even without the penalties we deserved to win.

The second comment was a note apart from the picture I posted.


It's disgusting to see people implying the Juve board are bribing referees. Is anyone really that naive to believe that Juve would risk having to rebuild the club entirely AGAIN? The thing about Europe is the fact that the difference in quality in Europe is high. Two seasons ago we beat Chelsea at home and Shakhtar away and knocked-out the reigning Champions League winner in Chelsea, then being knocked out by Bayern which was anything but a shame seeing as they would go on to win with what was one of the best club teams ever IMO. The year after that the Galatasaray disaster, which is something which can happen to any team. The playing conditions were an embarrasement and it was a fluke that Galatasaray went through. I would hardly call Juventus average in Europe, only underwhelming.

 

[S-NipE]

judging by those pics :

1st pen : the touch isn't even inside, remember, the ball must entirely be in the line, the line is a part of the area. PLUS, it doesn't count as a handball, as Maicon was protecting his body, his hand was stuck to his chest.

2nd pen, a dive or not, the contact was outside.

3rd goal, I don't see the full picture, but if Vidal was behind the last deffender, then he was blocking the sight of the GK, so it's an off-side.

Sorry to interrupt in here, buddy, but:

@1. Not the ball has to be in the box (including the line), but the player. Otherwise I could play with my hands when standing inside the box.

@2. Same here: The foot his weight is on (the left one) is ON the line. Therefore it is a penalty, if it was not a dive.

@3. Agree on this.

I agree with Damjan though, as I wrote during the WC: Not every time a referee has a bad day and makes wrong decisions it's bribery. Same goes for not seeing everything or correctly or when your team is loosing narrowly.

 

[gerd]

I've heard in the football weekly podcast that the Juve president (Agnelli) invited Moggi in his box for a recent match...i don't know if iet's true because i obviously wasn't there but if that is true, it is not a very intelligent thing to do.

Also the fact that Juventus still won't accept the fact that one (or two) Scudetto was taken away from them (the T-shirts for example), is not a very good thing.

But it could well be that i'm not rightly informed. In that case i apologize.

To conclude: Juve have to thank themselves for the fact that people like me think they are still cheating.

 

[Damjan]

The two titles were won on the pitch, that's what matters. The entire Calciopoli trials were a shambles but I won't dive into that.

 

[ImpossibleYesbutitsTrue]

Juventus deserved to win overall, deserving a win doesn't always mean scoring a set amount of goals. Even without the penalties we deserved to win.

Juve deserved at max a draw, not scored one regular goal out of play, one penalty, one present penalty, and one screamer after a corner, which was irregular.

Furthermore, Roma played not worse.

The two titles were won on the pitch, that's what matters. The entire Calciopoli trials were a shambles but I won't dive into that.

Haha, the "on the pitch" crap again.
It's about the HOW, but off course I can understand that the HOW is not important for you.

Another big Juve relativism posting, it never gets old.

 

[jihado86]

Sorry to interrupt in here, buddy, but:

@1. Not the ball has to be in the box (including the line), but the player. Otherwise I could play with my hands when standing inside the box.

@2. Same here: The foot his weight is on (the left one) is ON the line. Therefore it is a penalty, if it was not a dive.

I beg to differ here, what matters is where exactly the contact was.

in the first pen, we see the contact between the ball and the hand. Not the player's position.

in the second, we see were was the point of contact between the defender and Pogba, he tackled him (according to that pic, I haven't seen any video) outside the 18 yards.

 

[Damjan]

Strootman didn't get anything for this:

Not complaining when it's to your advantage now do you...

I'm done.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

The year after that the Galatasaray disaster, which is something which can happen to any team. The playing conditions were an embarrasement and it was a fluke that Galatasaray went through. I would hardly call Juventus average in Europe, only underwhelming.

It's not quite as simple as the capitulation in Istanbul. In fact if you had won in Copenhagen you would have gone through ahead of Galatasaray even taking into account the defeat in Turkey. Simply put your away results have been woeful. There is a genuine case for saying the Juventus have been the worst serie A performers in the CL over the last few years, especially when you factor in the fact they are (in theory, going on league position) the strongest Italian team.

2014-15
Madrid(L), Galatasary (L), Copenhagen (D)
(That year Milan, who everyone acknowledges are weaker than they have been for many years won away against Celtic and drew away vs Ajax, Napoli who had been drawn in what many consider to be the hardest group in the competition at least managed one away win vs Marseilles, and incidently won all their home games (vs Marseilles, Dortmund and Arsenal)

2013-14
Nordsjallend (D), Chelsea (D), Shakhtar (who had already qualified at this stage) (W), Celtic (W)
(That year Milan, again a team that wasnt vintage in terms of the quality of their players, won away at St. Petersburg (a notoriously hard place to go) and at Anderlecht, and only lost narrowly at Malaga)

2012-11
Juventus weren't in the CL, but Napoli managed to finish second in hard group, drawing away at Man City and beating Villareal. Inter won in Moscow, won in Lille and drew in Trabzon. Milan drew in Barcelona, drew in Borisov and drew in Plzen.

The results away from home are underwhelming and the only one which you would say was a genuine stunning (stunningly good) result was the 2-2 at Stamford Bridge. Whenever I've seen Juventus play a team of quality away from home in Europe they have looked sterile and devoid of ideas, take the Atletico match last week - Atletico are a very good team and a defeat isnt an embarrassment, but not to have a single shot on goal? For Juventus's best chance to be, essentially, a miscued clearance from an Atletico defender, well it just illustrates how bad they are in Europe.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

The two titles were won on the pitch, that's what matters. The entire Calciopoli trials were a shambles but I won't dive into that.

You cant be serious saying stuff like "won on the pitch". What a load of tripe. How come you can't even accept the wrongdoing that was proven?

 

[amineken22]

...Strootman didn't get anything for this...

You can't possibly be serious? Read...

 

[ImpossibleYesbutitsTrue]

I'm done.

Another big crap relativism posting, I wrote that it shouldn't be a penalty for Pogba, I also wrote that his foot was on the line, stop posting pics and thinking you're done, get real and accept the reality for once, Rube dreamer boy.

We all know what happened and saw it live, I do not need pictures, saw it, you get it?

Also why should Stroot get something?
Roma players on the bench were mobbed, why not Juve gets some penalty at first for this ha?

Also there are two players in an offside position, it even doesn't matter most of the time if the view is blocked, the referee uses his whistle most of the time in such situations, off course not for Juve, in the first picture you see clearly that the view is blocked anyway, no matter how you try to manipulate that scene with different angles and pictures, how far you need to go?

Stop the insane denial mode for once, get real.

edit
And btw, isn't the ref getting a ban? Read it somewhere..

 

[lo zio]

ok girls, that's enough catfighting.... daddy's home
seriously though, we're all smart reasonable guys here, no need to get aggressive over a stupid football game.

what do we have here; a game compromised by a poor performance from the ref (i think we can all agree on that). Rocchi is not a bad ref either; infact he's great.... he's just in a very bad form recently.... just a few days before the juve-roma game, he made a mess of the arsenal-galatasaray game...so before going crazy with the conspiracy theories, we should probably consider refs performances are effected by their form, just as players' performances.

as for the ref's calls themselves, they were all tricky, border-line decisions, so we should also cut the ref some slack (i think he made much more blatant mistakes in the arsenal-galatasaray game). personally i think the penalties shouldn't have been awarded, but i realise it must have been a tricky call in real time. as for juve's 3rd goal, i still haven't made up my mind, but i'm leaning towards the "onside\valid goal" opinion.
anyway the fact that many pundits still can't agree on the single episodes should help us realise none of the ref calls was really outrageous.
infact we see much crazier stuff from the refs every week in italy and in the rest of europe.

but of course, since juve is involved, any episode gets analyzed again and again, as every single mistake favouring juve is always gonna wake up ghosts from a past long gone.
however i think it's time we all move on from calciopoli and admit that that juventus club (and that serie a, for that matter) doesn't exist anymore.

Gerd, u said juve proved in the past they "like to cheat". but u see, juve is just a company, a legal entity. therefore juventus, as a club, doesn't have any likes, it doesn't have any proclivities, innate tendencies nor inherent predispositions. the "will" of a company is the result of the collective will of the people who guide that company. so any change in the management will inevitably determine a discontinuity in the company's conduct.

juventus' management, up till 2006 was not afraid to bend the rules for the club's advantages and moggi and giraudo took advantage of their power to set up a "network" of people helping each other at the expenses of the league. this network was formed by various people (referees, the referee commissioner, some italian federation managers and so on), and moggi exercised his influence over the italian football establishment to obtain unfair advantages for his club on the pitch.
but as soon as the scandal came to light in all its seriousness, italian football (and juventus ownership) took drastic measures to address the issue. the entire juventus management has been wiped out, the owners (as a gesture of responsibility) took a step back from the club and all the people involved in the scandal were banned from italian football (the referees, the commissioners, the federation directors involved, all of them were immediately shown the door).
procedures and mechanisms were put in place so that such a situation couldn't occurr again and all the clubs involved in the scandal were punished, accordingly to their degree of involvment and responsibility (some were even treated too harshly, like fiorentina).
i must admit, they way we handled that scandal was quite impressive and very "un-italian". we didn't hide anything under the carpet. the authorities performed a thorough investigation, exposed all the weaknesses of our system and assessed the problems.

juventus current management has no link whatsoever with the past management. Marotta (juve's current gm) is a man of integrity and shares nothing with his predecessors.
and even if he were as unscrupulous as moggi (which he isn't), it would be impossible for him to follow the footsteps of his predecessor, because the system doesn't allow certain practices anymore (even if moggi himself were still in charge, it would be impossible for him to get in contact with the referees commissioner today).

so, once and for all, let's drop this nonsense and stop raising foolish suspicions any time juve gets a dubious call from a ref.
any team takes advantage from a wrong ref's call sooner or later... i remember roma last season won a match because of a penalty awarded for foul which occurred just outside the box (just as it happened to juve), but nobody raised their eyebrows for that.

also, don't give damjan a hard time for his opinions on the calciopoli scandal. it's true his claims are unfounded (the calciopoli trial was everything but a farce, damjan), but there's been so much misinformation on the media about that trial, that i can understand any juve fan would be inclined to refute the verdict (although that's an unappropriate position to assume). and i can also understand why any juve fan would immediately get so defensive, given the crap they have to deal everytime theese sort of situations occurr.

juve won a match thanks to a bad call from the ref. that's it. in a few weeks or months they'll probably lose a match because of another bad call (and i'm sure roma will also benefit from another mistake, sooner or later). so let's just drop the prejudices and apply logic.
it's ok to have a passionate conversation (infact, i'ìd encourage it, as this thread has been dead quite some time), but let's keep it reasonable. we're all mature enough to handle a conversation without getting on each other's throats afterall.

 

[Lami]

but of course, since juve is involved, any episode gets analyzed again and again, as every single mistake favouring juve is always gonna wake up ghosts from a past long gone.
however i think it's time we all move on from calciopoli and admit that that juventus club (and that serie a, for that matter) doesn't exist anymore.

so, once and for all, let's drop this nonsense and stop raising foolish suspicions any time juve gets a dubious call from a ref.
any team takes advantage from a wrong ref's call sooner or later... i remember roma last season won a match because of a penalty awarded for foul which occurred just outside the box (just as it happened to juve), but nobody raised their eyebrows for that.

and i can also understand why any juve fan would immediately get so defensive, given the crap they have to deal everytime theese sort of situations occurr.

juve won a match thanks to a bad call from the ref. that's it. in a few weeks or months they'll probably lose a match because of another bad call (and i'm sure roma will also benefit from another mistake, sooner or later). so let's just drop the prejudices and apply logic.

All these.

Thanks for applying reason in here. Too much of the opposite was going on.

It really has become boring. I hope people treat Juve as any other football club now.

 

[gerd]

I'm sorry Ben, you didn't convince me, but i think it's better to continue this discussion with PM's.

Fact is that i have much information coming from second or third hand, that is a considerable weakness. If you would read my posts, i never said anything about the Roma match.

 

[lo zio]

there's nothing wrong with continuing this conversation in here, as long as we don't get carried away with our emotions

and yes i did read your post, and i noticed u were speaking in general and not referring to this specific game.... but u see your points make very little sense to me. let me explain u why.

u supported your conjecture with the fact juventus have underperformed in europe. but to be honest that's a very deceptive and misleading argument. By that logic we might make the same kind of conjectures about man city. u might argue that man city directors and owners don't have a history of cheating, but (and that's an irrefutable truth u seem to be ignoring) juventus current directors and the owner also don't have a history of cheating.... just as man city.
marotta has been in this line of work for about 30 years... the idea that he suddenly turned into a sleazy scumbag only because he got hired by juventus is simply preposterous.
associating marotta with moggi in any possible manner defies any logic.

let's just look at the facts, instead of relying on "second or third hand information". juventus have been jerking off in Cl for a number of years now. last season they messed up so badly they weren't even able to beat copenhagen... freaking copenhagen!!!
now there are 2 possible explanation to this:
1 - they badly underperformed
2 - they are infact such a weak team they can't even beat copenhagen.... which would lead one to ask himself how come they do so well in serie a (that seems to be your logic).
now i'm gonna write down the players who played that match against copenhagen: buffon, bonucci, ogbonna, chiellini lichtsteiner, vidal, pirlo, pogba, tevez, quagliarella.
now let me ask u a question: do u sincerely believe such a team couldn't beat copenhagen on an average day? do u sincerely believe juventus performances in CL would be a logic argument to support alligations of match fixing in serie a?

and as for your "2nd and 3rd hand informations", allow me to question the reliability of your sources. and i'm not saying this out of smugness or lack of trust. it's just logic.
just let me give some info that might allow u to form your own "informed" opinion, without having to rely on me or on any other source at your disposal.
as of right now there are about 12 "procure" (district attorneys offices") in italy sniffing through serie a's garbage cans in the hope of finding anything that might lead to an investigation. it's litterally a witch hunt.
the reason of this recent obsession with serie a can be explained with 2 words: mediatic exposure.
a football related scandal is the best thing that could happen to a district attorney carreer-wise. a football related inquiry is a slingshot to fame and visibility and any italian district attorney's favourite sport theese days is to use their recently acquired fame and gravitas to throw themselves into politics. as it turns out, a football related scandal offers a better carreer boost than even a trial against berlusconi himself.
district attorneys all over italy throw themselves on this pathetic search for crimes with the same passions teenagers show at an x factor audition.
and when u factor in that the italian legislation on phone wire tapping is as "liberal" as it would have been in russia under stalin, then u have the absolute certainty that the very moment a serie a team director makes a false step, he'll be caught.
mind u theese are not vague informations i received by someone else... theese are things i know for a fact (for professional reasons i deal with district attorneys offices on a regular basis).

so that's the simple truth: u, or anyone else who might have given u any sort of informations related to juventus activities, can't possibly know anything that torino's district attorney Armando Spataro doesn't know.
and the minute mr. Spataro finds out anything about juventus investigation-worthy, believe me, the rest of the world will know it too.... because he will make as much noise as possible (as that would be in his best interests).

i wouldn't be surprised to find out that marotta's and agnelli's phone are being wire tapped by torino's DA office (infact i'd be surprised if they weren't). the district attorneys in torino probably even know what marotta and agnelli had for dinner last night (i know this sounds like an hyperbole, but trust me, i'm not joking). and marotta and agnelli are well aware of that.
of course u're free to believe whatever u want, but simple logic suggests juventus are the last club on earth which would try any shenanigan today.

finally there's one statement of yours i found a bit disturbing ( i mean for a man of your intelligence).

To conclude: Juve have to thank themselves for the fact that people like me think they are still cheating.

that's not u Gerd. a smart man like u can't blame anyone but himself for relying on prejudices.
like i said, u're free to believe anything, even that bigfoot is real and lives inside my apartment.... but u gotta take responsibility for your opinions.
juventus can't be held responsible for your mistrust, because they changed their entire management the day after the scandal went public. marotta and agnelli can't be held responsible for your accusations, simply because they have done nothing to deserve such accusations.

let's say i just landed the CEO position at a company which previous CEO has been convicted for insider trading and market manipulation. then u come to me and tell me "i'm sorry man but i think your company still presists in its illegal activities.... and i can't be blamed for that statement... your company have only themselves to thank for that (your exact words)...
well then my reply would probably sound like that:
fuck u man! if u wanna call me criminal, at least have the guts to take responsibility for your statements. your accusations are based on a prejudicial association between me and my predecessor (a person i have no connection whatsoever with).
so if u wanna insult me with some false accusations, then don't hide youself behind my company's reputation and admit you're only speaking out of prejudice, coz u just can't slap me in the face and then say it was my fault if u hit me!

this is obviously just a hypotethical answer, of course..... u know i love u Gerd

 

[gerd]

I didn't say that Juventus are still cheating.

But what bothers me is that apparently Juventus never accepted their "punishment" for what Moggi did.

There is the fact that after (i think) the first title after their relegation, the players wore T-shirts with the number of scudetto which included the two lost titles...

And then there is the fact that Agnelli was recently seen with Moggi in his box at the the Juve stadium. The president of Juventus simply invited the biggest cheat in the history of the club.

I've heard this on the Football Weekly podcast by the Guardian. Is this the gospel. No it isn't. I'm well aware that you might say that isn't true. And if it isn't i've done Juve some injustice and i apologize.

But lets's suppose for the sake of argument that it is the truth.

I think somebody who has comitted a "crime" or made a serious mistake, should be punished but should afterwards get a second chance. People and companies make mistakes all the time. I've made mistakes (not crimes i hope) but i think i've always acknowledged that i was wrong and that is the start of learning from your mistakes and not repeting them.

By what i hear i don't have the impression that Agnelli and the club Juventus admit that they made a mistake. That disturbs me.

It might well be that i'm too harsh. But i'm influenced by what happened to my favourite club. The club i supported my whole life (and which doesn't exist anymore) was called RWDM. It was the second clubfrom Brussels. And when i was a teenager (that is a long time ago). The club was one of the best in Belgium. They became champions once (and this was at the time we had perhaps the best player in the world in our league - Robby Rensenbrink and players like Preben Elkjaer Larsen, Lubanski, Lato, Sigurvinsson and other great international players) and even did well in Europe.

Soon the decline became a harsh reality and years later the Belgian justice found out that the club had evaded tax for years and that they cheated social security.

In Belgium clubs have to have a licence in order to perform in competitive football and my favourite club didn't get a licence because they cheated (the person who took the final decision was...my wife). As a consequence the club just ceased to exist from one day to another...

As a fan i was gutted, but as a citizen i understood. Nobody is above the law, not even my favourite football club.

If you compare what happened to Juventus to what happened to my favourite club...they got a very, very lenient sentence and now they don't even seem to acknowledge their mistake...

What Moggi (and thus Juventus) did is an infraction to the very essence of sports: fair competition.

I know what you as a lawyer will say: you can't compare sentences for different crimes in different countries. If i think rationally i'm well aware of that.

If i let my heart speak, i don't agree.

Do i hate Juventus ? Not at all.
It is stupid to hate and it is even more stupid to hate a football club, which is something very abstract.

IMO Juventus have the most beautifull football kit in the world and they have players like Buffon, Pirlo and Asamoah.

Gaetano Scirea, my all-time favourite CB was a Juventus player...

But as long as they don't acknowledge their mistake, they don't deserve to be in Serie A.

Perhaps i don't know all the facts and if you can persuade me that i'm wrong (and that Agnelli and Juventus acknowledge their mistakes), i will be the first to apologize and to wish Juventus all the best.

This explanation is very clumsy, i'm sorry, but this legal language is not my thing.


I love you too Ben. Take care.

 

[lo zio]

But what bothers me is that apparently Juventus never accepted their "punishment" for what Moggi did.

i understand that, and believe me, it bothers me aswell, but that's just what usually happens in theese cases.
how often do u hear a convicted man accepting his punishment and admitting his wrongdoings? in theese cases most of the times the convicted refuses to aknowledge any responsibility, claims he's been offered as a scapegoat and persists in proclaiming his innocence.
did richard fuld ever admit any responsibility for the lehman brothers disaster and the subprime crisis?
did jeff skilling ever admit responsibility for the fraudulent (and flat out criminal) activities of enron.
did berlusconi ever admit responsibility for his several charges and sentences?
yes, every once in a while u stumble upon someone who faces his responsibilities with some dignity, but that's the exception, rather than the rule.

besides the juventus case is even more complicated than the ones i mentioned above. u see skilling, berlusconi, they all payed for their own actions.
in this case instead the agnelli family, juve players, and the fans payed for the actions of another person (moggi). which makes their anger towards their punishment even stronger (and that's absolutely understandable).

now, being a reasonable man, i can already imagine u telling me "but then shouldn't they be even angrier with moggi? why is agnelli junior defending the legittimacy of those titles? why is he allowing himself to be seen with moggi at the stadium?

the answer is simple: to please his fanbase. the whole "juventus have been made a scapegoat" is an applause line and agnelli junior needs all support he can get, coz, ever since he sat on that chair, despite his success, he hasn't been getting much love from juve fans.

8 years ago, immediately after the scandal came to light, the ownership's first reaction was to take the high road. hence the step back in the presidency, hence the purge of moggi and giraudo even before the trial began.
but the new chairman, Cobolli Gigli, soon realised this strategy wasn't winning them any sympathy among juve fans (who felt their club was being unfairly treated and who felt their chairman wasn't defending juventus' reputation with the appropriate firmness).
and that's when the sudden change in strategy occurred. i remember seeing it happening in real time and it was surreal. overnight, they suddenly went from "taking the high road" to "complete denial".
it certainly wasn't juventus brightest moment, but it worked. the change of strategy brought the fans closer to the ownership and gave them a new enemy: "the system", "the judges", "the federation", "moratti".

i believe that, had the agnelli brothers been alive they wouldn't have allowed it (i'm talking about the real agnellis, the dead uncles of those 3 spoiled brats who carry their name today), but that's just speculation.
and in any case, like i said, u can't blame juventus ownership for doing what most people do when facing similar situations.

If you compare what happened to Juventus to what happened to my favourite club...they got a very, very lenient sentence

i disagree with that. u can't compare the sentences without factoring in also the starting position. unlike your club, juventus was one of the elite clubs on the planet, with a world wide fanbase of millions of people and major economic interests all over the world. although your favourite club got a harsher treatment, juventus definitely got hit very hard.
juventus had a world wide reputation (which your club hadn't) and that reputation has been tarnished (possibly) for decades to come.
the economic damage juventus suffered can't be quantified, but it might be roughly estimated in hundreds of millions (which certainly wasn't the case for your club).
dismantling the club (which is the punishment u seem to suggest) would have been not only illegal, but also extremely unfair to millions of fans who had no responsibility whatsoever. juventus got punished according to the rules, and they certainly didn't get away with a slap on the wrist.

 

[gerd]

Imo Juventus shouldn't have been dismantled, Ben.
But i'm not sure if i agree with your logic about the fans being punished too. This is a weird logic.

Applyi this logic to other crimes and it becomes weirder.
Anyway you are the lawyer and i'm not.

I understand the logic between Juventus' shift, but i still don't agree.
I understood that what my team did should be punished, i don't understand the Juventus fans who claim the club was unfairly treated.

 

[lo zio]

But i'm not sure if i agree with your logic about the fans being punished too. This is a weird logic.
Applyi this logic to other crimes and it becomes weirder.

yeah, i can sense your confusion. and i can also see why u find it weird. you're still mixing up people with corporations. let's make a hypothetical example...
valentino rossi commits a crime. he gets charged and found guilty. his sentence must be commensurate with what the law dictates for his crime and the fact that valentino is a celebrity with a huge fanbase mustn't be taken into any account.
that's obvious, the mere idea that a person should get a softer treatment because of is popularity would be a ridiculous discrimination.

but the situation with juventus is completely different from this example. in that example the person who got punished is also the perpetrator of the crime. valentino rossi committed a crime and now he's paying for it. that's only fair.
but juventus is not a person, it's a legal entity.... a fictional entity which has no body nor will. if i would ask u "who is juventus", u couldn't name just one person..... u'd come up with a multitude of people: the general manager is juventus (because he's the one who guides the club).... the owner is juventus (because he's the one who puts the money).... the coach and the players are juventus (because they represent the club any time they play).... and finally the fans are juventus (because without them and their money, there would be litterally no difference between juventus and the small football team u coach).
u see the difference? whereas valentino has fans, juventus is (also) its fans. and whereas moggi and giraudo are certainly responsible for their actions, how can the players and millions of fans be considered responsible for something they weren't even aware of?

when a company's CEO commits a crime things get a bit tricky, from a legal point of view. the perpetrator of the crime is not "the company" of course, but the ceo, so he's the one who must be punished. however, even though the company isn't really guilty of anything, it still took advantage from the actions of the ceo. therefore some sort of retribution is in order.

but (and this is the important part) there's a huge difference between the punshment of the perpetrator (the ceo) and the punishment of the company. u see, any criminal penalty serves 2 purposes: to punish the perpetrator for violating the law and to re-educate him (to teach him a lesson).
civil penalties instead (which are the ones companies get) instead serve a completely different purpose. to compensate the victims of a violation (the other competitors, which didn't violate any rule) and to restore the balance.

u see where i'm going with this? u don't punish juventus to teach it a lesson. juventus isn't a person, so it can't learn anything. besides u're already punishing the actual perpetrator of the crime, so why should u also pile on the club?
u should pile on the club because, even though juve was not the actual perpetrator, the club still benefitted from an unfair advantage.... an advantage determined by moggi's actions. so that's why u penalize the club as well, not to "punish it" but to restore a balance and compensate those clubs who didn't cheat.

and that's also where juve fans get really mad. this last observation infact leads to your second question.

i don't understand the Juventus fans who claim the club was unfairly treated.

because they claim moggi wasn't the only one bending the rules. they believe every club in the league used to put pressure on the referees, so punishing their club hasn't restored any balance at all. now there's some truth to their claims, but their conclusion still remains wrong.

infact moggi wasn't the only one who played dirty. Galliani too has made some phone calls to the referee commissioner to put pressure on him on a handful of occasions. but there was a substantial difference between what moggi did and what galliani did. galliani simply called the referee commissioner to guarrantee his team top class referees for some matches. he didn't set up an entire network of "friendly refs". he didn't hand prepaid phones to the refs (in order to have "private chats" with them). he didn't collude with the refs themselves and the some federation directors (like moggi did).
what galliani did was still wildly unappropriate, but also nowhere near as serious as what moggi did. to use a metaphor, galliani exceeded the speed limit by 10 miles an hour, whereas moggi was driving 100 miles an hour above the speed limit, while under the influence. there's a big difference..... which is why milan got a much softer punishment.

but what really drives juve fans (and agnelli) crazy is the inter situation. many years after the calciopoli scandal erupted, the italian federation attorney (mr. Palazzi) said he had found some "elements" (it would be unappropriate to call them "evidences") which may suggest inter general manager (giacinto facchetti) did the same thing galliani used to do. unfortunately mr. Palazzi discovered theese "elements" too late, when the statute of limitations had already ran out, so he couldn't open an investigation on inter.
this drove juventus fans and owners crazy. they eventually found out that their unfounded claims might have been correct afterall; that inter wasn't exactly playing by the rules either. and yet inter got awarded those 2 scudetti juventus got stripped out of.

bottom line, juventus fans and owners are wrong when they assume they were made a scapegoat. although other clubs also violated the rules, what moggi did was much worse. besides not every club is the league cheated (only milan and maybe inter), so their punishment did infact restore a balance.
but there's also some truth to their complaints. awarding those 2 scudetti to inter was absolutely unappropriate. those 2 scudetti should have been voided, and that's something any neutral fan can agree with.

 

[gerd]

Hi Ben, i was well aware about Inter and Facchetti.
But if that would be true, then those scudetti should go to another team...the team that finished third behind both Inter and Juventus.

This is like in cycling. There are people who say that Armstrong's doping should not be punished, because every single cyclist doped and that regardless of his performance enhancing drug abuse, Armstrong still was the best.

I don't agree. Even if there was only one cyclist who didn't cheated and even if he was the last in the general ranking of the Tour de France, that guy is the winner for me. And anyway, since i have inside information from cyclism, i know that Cadel Evans never took performance enhancing drugs, that is the reason he was never like by his Lotto team mates and in the end het left the team...but i'm going wildly off-topic.

I can understand twhat you are writing about Juve as a club, but you suppose that the club Juventus and the owner Agnelli didn't know what Moggiwas up to. Well, i don't buy that. This also happened with the fraudulent traders at banks (De Kerviel, Leeson e.a), i don't believe that they acted on their own...

If you are right that "Juventus" (Agnelli, the management) didn't know, i agree. Otherwise i don't.

But i found that last post very interesting, i've learned a lot and i feel silly even discussing this with you...this is not my thing, so perhaps it's stupid to counter you...i'm talking with my heart while you are reasoning.

 

[lo zio]

Hi Ben, i was well aware about Inter and Facchetti.
But if that would be true, then those scudetti should go to another team...the team that finished third behind both Inter and Juventus.

that's a reasonable conclusion and many people agree with u. but i think voiding the entire season would have left a better message.
today u could look at serie a recordbook and think nothing ever happened. leaving 2 blank spots for those 2 seasons would have been a much more appropriate "mark of infamy".

everytime the calciopoli topic pops out, people immediately think of juventus, but the truth is calciopoli exposed the ineptitude and the corruption of the entire italian football establishment. moggi didn't do everything by himself, he wouldn't have gone anywhere without some help. he colluded with refs, with the referees commissioners, with some very important directors working for the italian federation.
calciopoli wasn't just the crime of a single man (or a few men).... it was an institutional failure. so, by not assigning those 2 scudetti, we would have sent a more appropriate message to the rest of the world:
"See those 2 blank spots? those are there to remind everyone that here in italy we can't even organize a football tournament".
but that's just my personal opinion, of course.

but you suppose that the club Juventus and the owner Agnelli didn't know what Moggiwas up to. Well, i don't buy that.

yeah i'm sure they didn't know anything. u see, the relationship between the agnelli family and juventus wasn't like the relation between any other owner and his club.
the agnelli family has been one of the world's 5 most influential families of the last century. compared to Gianni and Umberto Agnelli, people like abramovich, the glazers or the mansour family are shoe salesmen. and i'm not just talking about money or economic interests here... i'm talking about real power, real influence and gravitas. Gianni Agnelli received monthly phone calls from the most powerful men on earth: kennedy, kissinger, margaret thatcher, gorbaciov, mitterand. because he also was one of the most powerful and influential men on earth.
juventus was just a plaything for the agnellis, a guilty pleasure, a distraction... but they always had too much stuff on their hands to dedicate any time to their toy.
and that's why they hired a proper general manager. not just a team director or a financial director. a gm with total control over the club. the agnelli's role inside the club was almost comparable to an honorary position. they gave their gm complete freedom to control the club (especially in the '90s).
another proof of their distance from the actual management of the club is the fact that they often appointed as presidents people who weren't members of the family (craveri, dusio, catella, boniperti, grande stevens, cobolli gigli, blanc).

in most clubs the owners are directly involved with the management... think of zamparini and palermo or abramvich and chelsea. if what happened to juve had happened in those clubs, then i would have no doubts the owner would have been aware of what was happening..... but juve wasn't run like those clubs. and that's why i'm sure the agnelli didn't know anything.

and i also believe the appointment of another agnelli as president (after so many years) is meaningful. it's a message. the family decided it was time to take back the complete control of the club. for the first time in many years a member of the family was nominated president.... and this time the presidency isn't just an honorary position.... andrea agnelli really is at the helm of juventus... no more general managers, but an agnelli directly involved with the management of the club.
.......... if only andrea agnelli were even just a fraction of the men his uncles were.... but then again, people like gianni and umberto agnelli don't belong to this world anymore. this is the world of the abramovichs, the manrours, the berlusconis... ignorant buffoons with no education, no class, no curiosity and no charme at all.