steevio_uk said:
Ok mate I appreciate your post.
You have many things I agree with in there.
But i'm sorry to in certain parts, there are some irrelevant arguments (albeit good ones).
I'm not being rude,- far from it.
I'll explain why I think that in some order...
Let me first of all say, I appreciate your post too! 8)
It must have taken you quite a while to write out your thoughts and I never walk away from an intelligent discussion which you and I were having either so I admire the effort you put and appreciate it the same way!
Firstly I never said players should or should not go based on being international class.
But I did say that as a player Bent is not international class.
I believe Walcott is DESPITE not playing (which as you are aware does not mean nothing to me in this case alone!!
I don't care what Saudi Arabia, Argentina do. It's not them I care about it's irrelevant.
Well mate from the post I quoted, that's exactly what one reading would've thought. Because it clearly said - Darren Bent is not Int'l class so he shouldn't go. Simple as that. Implying only Int'l class people should go or at least that's what one like me would interpret like.
I also see you saw the Saudia Arabia, Argentina and Croatia bit as perhaps a bit "Irrelevant" on my part and yes while they're not generally related to England squad we were talking about, I did have a point in there using those 3 teams which I'm sure you got. It was about how each team picks best it can based on players they have available, for some it may be 4 Int'l quality strikers for some one or two or in some cases's none!
It is because Walcott is THAT good and Bent is THAT average in my opinion.
Simple as that.
And as Kevano said, that is my opinion.
The fact that Sven has picked Bent in )squads and has not taken him at all; and has even taken Andy Johnson (who has been in no squads) and a 17 year old with NO game, must tell you how much Sven doesn't rate Bent.
Me too!
Well I don't think Darren Bent is avg at all. He's not Marcus Bent! But I guess I rate him somewhat and you don't at all and this is where we can agree to disagree
Regarding what Sven did, it won't tell me whether you're right or I'm right what it does is like you said it shows you two are both on the same boat regarding Darren Bent in form that neither of you rate him. Fair enough.. even though if I don't agree and is another reason why I don't rate Sven!
The next bit is the bit that biugged me mate.
You obviously have no idea of my football opinions (Which I suppose is not your fault
)
Yet you have wrote the longest piece elaborating on the word 'star' under the assumption that I mean this as the flashy, skillful type of player??!!
I can see why this bugged you. It's my mistake for assuming wrong.
Who decided that 'star' meant flashy player and skillful?
The dumbass "Attacking-minded" media and casual fan like I said who has very limited understanding of "Real football". Not me and you or people like us clearly.
You are talking to the man who's
favourite football player of the last 15 years is Demetrio Albertini!!
Ask me who I think the star of spain is and I will say Xavi. Easily.
Bravo! :applause:
Everything you said about the type of player you labelled as a 'star' I 100% agree with.
It is just that opinions of players does not apply to me like you have made it sound.. in fact the 100% opposite
I see what you mean. To be honest though when I was saying those things, I didn't mean they apply directly to you! I meant that's unfortunately how "Most" of the football world sees it (Reason being most are just casual fans) but I was clearly wrong to think you might be one of them and now I think we've cleared it up just as much as how "Stats and end of season figures" don't mean that much to me!
One thing you did say was who is more likely to be the 'star'.
More likely to make things happen based on their attributes?
Walcott easily. Because we are talking about attributes. Not what they have done or how many goals they have scored.
JUST The player's ability alone.
In my opinion Walcott is better than Bent.
I said Walcott is more likely to be a "Star" than Darren Bent if it mean getting past players with extreme speed, dribbling and things like that. If a star is one who is supposed to get the goals (depends how you want to define it), I say based on CURRENT ability, Darren Bent is more likely to do it and so is better choice for me.
Again though you say Walcott is better than Bent and while I don't usually get involved with comments like these because it's hard to really compare two player and say who is better (since in some attributes, undoubted one will be better than other and in some other attributes the other way around) and I especially don't get involved when it's two "Different-type" of players, this time I just had to mate. Cuz I strongly disagree with this! But then again this is what these forums are for so this is where we'll have to again agree to disagree as we each have our own opinion and that's cool.
The people who have worked with Walcott will teall you just how good he is. Toure has come out and said how good he is.
No doubt Henry will say also.
People know how good a pleyer is. You don't ALWAYS have to see them play at the highest level. (This case with him and Bent especially).
Alright now I'm not sure how useful these arguments are. Surely I can also say the people who've worked with Darren Bent at Ipswich and later on Charlton and anyone else who's worked with him will come out and undoubtedly tell you how good he is. Doesn't say much. It's just the opinions of they're friends and current team-mates, Ex-coaches or people who they usually have good relationship with.
Which even then like in the article "DeniroBob" posted, you saw some people like Southampton coach "Bassett" saying Theo is talented and whatever but would make sense if he was 6th or 7th choice striker not 4th! in front of likes of Defoe and Darren Bent!
A simple comparison would be Pique and Christian Dailly of West Ham.
Now Pique has played a few games for Man Utd so please don't be pedantic and say that matters over Walcott's 0 games.
Because if Walcott played in the CL final and 2 warm up games, does that mean Walcott's inclusion is more justified that playing 0 games?
Is it more
justified then? Yes definitely!!! The more competitive high level game this kid or anybody gets and IMPRESSES on, the more their inclusion to thigns like national team is justified! Does it actually mean he's any better in terms of ability than he is if he doesn't get those games ?? No it doesn't!
My point being that everybody and his dog knows that Gerard Pique is better than Christian Dailly.
We don't have to see Pique play games in the premier league to know this.
(I know I have chosen a worse player in Dailly than Bent, but i'm sure you understand my point)
My point being that by what people are saying (yourself included) that someone is not qualified to say how one player is better than the other because they have not played a game.
This rule then qualifies on EVERY player who is compared by not playin a game, no matter how good or bad.
Is someone now gonna turn round and say Pique is not better than Christian Dailly just to invalidate my point??
I won't invalidate nor confirm your point as to "Pique is defeinitely better than Christian Dailly" since I haven't seen the kid play yet unfortunately! Yes Dailly is aging, sloppier and not as good as he used to be but I won't say Pique is better until I see those games he played myself to prove it.
And of course this rule applies to everyone, it's not a Theo Walcott rule! :lol: mate
It's simply for anybody who has never proven themselves at higher level being compared and even said is better than somebody who HAS been proven like Darren Bent!
I'm glad you are with me that player's goals and figures do not always mean more compared to their actual playing abilities.
In this case you can understand me not taking to much notice of Bent's goals.
I have already mentioned that I am not basing my argument on Walcott getting goals in the World Cup... more on the overall things he brings to games. He has the ability to make something out of nothing, sacare defenders and change a game with a run, pass and assist...and maybe a goal.
I have no confidence in Bent doing this.
Nor does Sven.
Well we already know you and Sven are together on this one as clearly stated previosly
Regarding you saying he has ability to make something out of nothing. YES that's due to his explosive speed and ability to take on players... then you follow it by saying he can make a run (which he can) a pass and assist and shot (which we don't know how good those abilities are and if anything probably Darren Bent is just as good in those things if not better especially getting goals). So can he make something out of nothing that Bent probably can't? Yes.. Is he more likely to miss a good chance that needs good finishing or aerial battle than Bent? Yeah probably yes again!
Bent has shown us some of his good finishing this year and also he's got plenty to his aerial game too despite the obvious size and physical advantage over Theo as well.
On the subject of World Class, I think that is the most overused term in football.
Oh, Wes Brown is a world class defender, Maniche is a world class midfielder etc etc.
I reserve World Class for the best.
Off the top of my head, I would say there are approximately 20 or 30 world class players in the World.
Exactly. That's what "World-class" real definition should be! The BEST and that means only a limited number of the toppest players in each position.
And yeah it is way too often used. The people who say Maniche and Wes Brown are WORLD CLASS is just one good example
But i cannot say Lampard is not in the top 30 players in the world, that would be crazy!!
I was focusing more on him being a footballer overall.
Well that's why I disagreed. We just agreed that "World class" means the top let's say 30 players in each position. So if you can't say Lampard is not in top 30 that means he's world-class whether he's a great footballer or not! 8)
Lampard scores plenty of goals from midfield and for that job he is World class.
So many games he goes missing and then scores a cracker and gets the headlines. (I am not here and nowhere in my posts am I implying that you make false judgements on such things mate
)
Lampard has done hardly anything since the new year. Only in recent weeks has he found a fair bit of form.
Yes he's done that this season a bit. Last season though he was world-class in every single way and played awesome almost week in week out with only a few avg performances.
As you can see from my post I am not one of those people that just reads bits of posts and choose to argue!!
You are similar to me in the respect you like to be thorough (I'm sure our girls are pleased
:lol: )
And that you don't want people to make a misunderstood judgement on what you are saying.
I respect that totally dude.
:thumbup:
Just one other thing regarding being possibly patronising:
I may have
misread slightly the following phrase:
I also have more things to say like how I completely disagree when you say "Theo is BETTER than Darren Bent" and if we clearly examine the two players and analyze them in every single area (Many different attributes), you'll see what I mean and it'll become quite clear to you but I won't do that now as that'll be another long post on its own and no time or place for it here right now.
This part in particular mate:
Are you saying that I will see what you mean and it will become clear where you are coming from.
Or are you saying that after hearing more from you that it will become clear that I am wrong?
You can see how that may look.
(didn't want to comment without clearing it up with you first mate
)
You might have slightly mis-interpreted that my friend but even so it was MY fault for choosing the wrong words that can be slightly mis-interpreted so I take all the blame and yes I can see how that might have looked and glad you brought it up and we cleared it! 8)
Yes of course what I meant was I'm confident if I analyze with you in another time where we're both not tired and have time :lol: both players in depth in many different attributes, you'll see what I mean and where I'm coming from (not that it'll show you, you're wrong
) and why Bent is more of an all-rounded (Full package) striker and has a way wider variety of skills which all will be useful at one part of match or another compared to some extremely fast and good dribbler young kid like some 17 year old kid who is more of "raw talent" and not developed or far from "Finished-product" yet.
In my opinion on current ability Walcott is better than Bent.
I'm not the type of guy who says:
Walcott is better than Bent. FACT.
(I fucking hate that man!! :lol
Good I hate that too :lol: :mrgreen:
And if the Walcott is better than Bent statement is your opinion, sure I'm fine with it dude. I myself happen to very much disagree and hopefully when I get the time and discuss with you, you'll see where I might be coming from but for now I guess we just have to agree to disagree
Oh yeah one more thing dude.
steevio_uk said:
(Who wants to bet with me that Darren Bent will be playing for someone like Wolves in 3 years??)
I'm up for it. What are we betting on? 8)
