What one player would you take your main rival team?

RuneEdge said:
I'd agree with that. Liverpool with a top winger would be very dangerous.
I think a lot of teams could do with Ronaldo in their side. Kinda like Ruud van Nistelrooy would fit into any side you put him in.
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Don't agree at all.

Ronaldo is great for players in the box who have lots of movement, if you have a lump in the box that thrives on crosses then Ronaldo would be a knightmare because no striker can predict when he would put the ball in the box....that is part of the reason he fell out with Van Nistelrooy....not that the latter is a lump, just that he thrived on crosses.
 
You dont think Ronaldo would do well at either Liverpool, Arsenal, Barca, Real Madrid, etc?
 
RuneEdge said:
You dont think Ronaldo would do well at either Liverpool, Arsenal, Barca, Real Madrid, etc?
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I never said that.

My point is that certain teams who have certain forwards would either not benefit from him or put better would benefit less from him and that certain team/players would be more suited to a winger/right sided player that has differing skills- like crossing a great ball.

Conversely I think Ronaldo is more suited to Rooney and Tevez than Beckham would have been in his prime.

Certainly I think Ronaldo was less suited to Van Nistelrooy than Beckham was.

This does not make Ronaldo any less of a player, it is just the nature of football that some players fit together better than others.

Can you see my point?
 
I know what you mean. When I mentioned those clubs above, I wasnt saying other teams in general. I meant I think Ronaldo can do well for Liverpool, and Arsenal, and Barca, and Real Madrid. I left out Chelsea on purpose cuz I'm not sure if he can work within their system without stifling his ability.
 
steevio_uk said:
T Butcher fan, it's a shame how times change.
Traditionally for Chelsea fans, it would have been us and Spurs without question.

For us it's traditionally Millwall, but nowadays Spurs, so I have to go with probably Robbie Keane or Berbatov.
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When I was a kid, our biggest rivals were QPR, no question. Then came the rest of London (and Leeds!).

We never really had a rivalry with Fulham though, most Chelsea fans used to go and watch them when we were away (and vice-versa) but that has died out in the last 10 or 15 years. They absolutely hate us now and I find that a bit sad (sad as in sad, not pathetic). We used to be good friends!
 
T Butcher fan said:
When I was a kid, our biggest rivals were QPR, no question. Then came the rest of London (and Leeds!).

We never really had a rivalry with Fulham though, most Chelsea fans used to go and watch them when we were away (and vice-versa) but that has died out in the last 10 or 15 years. They absolutely hate us now and I find that a bit sad (sad as in sad, not pathetic). We used to be good friends!
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Fulham and Chelsea were about as much rivals as we are with Leyton Orient :lol:

I still know quite a few Chelsea fans who, when looking at the fixture list, still look immediately for West Ham away.

Regardless of how big West Ham theoretically became and if we were playing Man Utd, Liverpool etc in massive title games, it is and will always be Spurs for me.
 
I know this will be controversial, but i don't know what all the fuss about Gerrard is (neither about Carragher).
They are both very good team players but i've never considered gerrard a top class player, as a matter of fact i agree with Vanzandt that Arteta is better.
Gerrard is a player that woul never succeed outside England and maybe even in another than Liverpool...there is debate for the England team that Gerrard and Lampard can't play in the same team.
If i had to choose i would never doubt: Lampard (although is also immensely overrated).

But this is only my opininion and who am i...
 
Gerrard for me is one of the best all round footballers in the world and certainly better than Big Fat Frank Lampard Jnr.
For the past 5 years, the England central midfield should have been Gerrard and a n other.

Gerrard and Lampard cannot play together, but the FA's decision to consistently appoint a yes mean means the high profile players and their big name agents always get the influence over what players get touted for the first team.

How Gerrard would do outside of England we do not know, but he has shown in Europe that he can produce the goods, most notably in 2005.
At international level he has been largely disappointing but much of that is due to the above problem and ineptness of management.
 
gerd said:
I know this will be controversial, but i don't know what all the fuss about Gerrard is (neither about Carragher).
They are both very good team players but i've never considered gerrard a top class player, as a matter of fact i agree with Vanzandt that Arteta is better.
Gerrard is a player that woul never succeed outside England and maybe even in another than Liverpool...there is debate for the England team that Gerrard and Lampard can't play in the same team.
If i had to choose i would never doubt: Lampard (although is also immensely overrated).

But this is only my opininion and who am i...
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He's a very English midfielder. Hard working, dependable etc. I do think he's pretty good, but he's nowhere near the standard that is made out over here. He is regarded as some sort of Superhero by the media.
 
gerd said:
I know this will be controversial, but i don't know what all the fuss about Gerrard is (neither about Carragher).
They are both very good team players but i've never considered gerrard a top class player, as a matter of fact i agree with Vanzandt that Arteta is better.
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To be fair although I do my utmost to view players without selective bias, it does have to be said that I am an Evertonian and my opinion here is of a Liverpool and Everton player respectively so my opinion may therefore reflective a subconscious bias and so should be considered by others in that light.

I prefer the extremely tight ball control, retention of possession and technical skills of Arteta to the box to box skills and striking technical ability that Gerrard has, it is a personal preference and one that may be biased....I don't know.

I think a preference of skill types is often a reason for why people disagree over certain archetypal forms players represent. I think there is a tendency in English football to have more respect for the skills of a player like Gerrard, than a player like Arteta and maybe the reverse a little more true in certain schools of thought in Europe, though as all generalizations that isn’t much more than a tendency…

In any respect, I regard them both as outstanding players if played to their strengths in the right system, something that to be fair to Gerrard has often been patently ignored at international level.

Carragher is just an outstanding strong basic defender who is fantastic in the air and who does all the basic things extremely well. He would fit in anywhere in Europe and be a major asset to any team if complimented with a defender who is more cultured, pacy and more able with the ball. Carragher is similar in type to a Materazzi and would have in fact complimented Ferdinand very well at international level. The reason he did not do so was because of a certain player named John Terry who happens to do exactly what Carragher does with but with more ability in terms of his range of passing etc.

Gerrard would make it in Europe at any club that played to his strengths, but he could fail at any club that played a style that was not suitable to him. That would not make him any less of a player, horses for courses and all that jazz.

Lampard is IMHO no better than Gerrard in fact technically he is not as good on the ball and is poorer going backwards. But each player has the differing attributes and are each suited to differing positions and ways of playing.

Lampard plays very well playing off the power of Drogba with all the knockdowns that bring in his goalscoring threat and suits a direct style of play. He is also very well suited to getting in those forward positions without as much onus of him getting back with the fantastic defensive and narrow cover that Makelele and Essian have traditionally offered in Mourinho’s compact defensive system.
Gerrard on the other hand prefers to a deeper midfield role, (but not playing as defensive mid) where he can break forward from and attack the space between the midfield and defensive with his surging runs. But he does not require as much cover as Lampard does because his superior pace, engine and tackling do allow him to get back more (though Benitez does seem fixated with Gerrard vacating space in midfield it is not the issue it would be with Lampard).

I wonder if as Chelsea start to play more expansive football, which will presumably mean playing less direct through Drogba and with less of a narrow midfield with excessive cover….I wonder if this will actually reduce the ability to play Lampard as effectively….

Anyway…waffling sorry.

The bottom line is I do rate Carragher highly if correctly paired with the right defender and I do rate Gerrard highly if played in the right way, though I have a tendency to prefer the skill set of a slightly differing type of midfielder like Arteta, though Arteta might not be the best example as I might be being biased.

Phhhew Haha

ThomasGOAL said:
i'm OM fan

from PSG --> Rothen
from Bordeaux --> Obertan
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I was a big fan of Rothen at Monaco, but have not seen him play as much since.
 
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gerd said:
A litle bit biased???
Lampard wasn't exactly the most loved player at West Ham...
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I can understand why you would think that and despite detesting the fat cunt, I have no bias against his abilities.

I think vanzandt said all I needed to in his excellent post above regarding Lampard and indeed Gerrard.
Lampard is a player who is fortunate enough to have a role like he does at Chelsea. But that luxury is not with England and he very much comes up short.

Lampard, from boy to man has been very very lucky indeed.

vanzandt, I agree with all you say regarding personal preferences on a certain style of player.
I have seen and loved Arteta for a number of years before he really came to prominence at Everton and I agree he is truly a quality player.
With the style of players aside and despite me thinking Arteta is truly different class, I still feel that until he has consistently done what Gerrard has done over the years domestically and in Europe then he won't be quite held in the same regard.

Brings me to a brief question of whether you think Arteta should (and indeed want) to eventually move to another (dare I say bigger) club?
 
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steevio_uk said:
I can understand why you would think that and despite detesting the fat cunt, I have no bias against his abilities.
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I'm certain you are telling the truth there Steevio but the language is Very funny and suggests a bias that you don't have :lol:

I presume you wanted to have that funny paradox in there for the point of humour.

Joking for a second...

Steevio certainly has no bias against the bastards parentage:lmao:

steevio_uk said:
I think vanzandt said all I needed to in his excellent post above regarding Lampard and indeed Gerrard.
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Which is in my opinion a perfectly legitimate point and you may well be correct, my opinion is by no means correct, it is just my opinion. Maybe there is some subconcious bias at play like I said, I don't know.

steevio_uk said:
Brings me to a brief question of whether you think Arteta should (and indeed want) to eventually move to another (dare I say bigger) club?
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Picture him at West Ham, or Gerrard or any player who really admire at West Ham and then ask yourself the same question. I think you know what my answer is;)
 
Yes :lol:

By the way, I have complete and utter 100% bias against Fat Frank Lampard Jnr as a person, but as a player I do not.

I think he is a very good, albeit overrated, footballer.
It's just that he is a shitcunt of a person who, along with the bell ringer at Pompey, I hope gets a severe bout of chronic Ebola.

That's about it really, nothing major.
 
steevio_uk said:
I can understand why you would think that and despite detesting the fat cunt, I have no bias against his abilities.

I think vanzandt said all I needed to in his excellent post above regarding Lampard and indeed Gerrard.
Lampard is a player who is fortunate enough to have a role like he does at Chelsea. But that luxury is not with England and he very much comes up short.
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This is just a big bag of wrong.

It's Chelsea who are fortunate to have a player of his ability. The guy scores 20+ goals a season and creates another 20 in assists. And he has done this 4 years in a row and looks like he will make it number 5 in May. That is not luck!!! He does it because he is quality, simple as that.

As for England, he doesn't play too great with Gerrard - no one is going to argue there. He requires a Makelele to do the defensive work so he can focus on what he's good at. Squeezing him into a system that doesn't work for him or Gerrard doesn't make him a crap player, as he proves week after week playing in a system that does suit.
 
T Butcher fan said:
This is just a big bag of wrong.

It's Chelsea who are fortunate to have a player of his ability. The guy scores 20+ goals a season and creates another 20 in assists. And he has done this 4 years in a row and looks like he will make it number 5 in May. That is not luck!!! He does it because he is quality, simple as that.

As for England, he doesn't play too great with Gerrard - no one is going to argue there. He requires a Makelele to do the defensive work so he can focus on what he's good at. Squeezing him into a system that doesn't work for him or Gerrard doesn't make him a crap player, as he proves week after week playing in a system that does suit.
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I think it's tit for tat really mate.
Because you afford him the luxury of such a role, he repays you with said performances.
Which is fine in a player/club scenario, but when comparing Lampard the player in the bigger scheme of things and against other players and in other systems, it tells a different story.

It's against the bigger teams, in the bigger games and on the international stage where he isn't quite the same player.
Most importantly, in any different formation, he is left wanting.

Get Gerrard and Arteta and they will play LM, RM, CM, AM.
Can Lampard do all of that other than his tailor-made role at Chelsea?

Not on your nelly.
 
steevio_uk said:
I think it's tit for tat really mate.
Because you afford him the luxury of such a role, he repays you with said performances.
Which is fine in a player/club scenario, but when comparing Lampard the player in the bigger scheme of things and against other players and in other systems, it tells a different story.

It's against the bigger teams, in the bigger games and on the international stage where he isn't quite the same player.
Most importantly, in any different formation, he is left wanting.

Get Gerrard and Arteta and they will play LM, RM, CM, AM.
Can Lampard do all of that other than his tailor-made role at Chelsea?

Not on your nelly.
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That's just a ridiculous argument - if the guy is fantastic in the role he plays, why the hell would I want him playing left midfield!!! I just don't get this line of thinking at all.

Do you look down on Ronaldinho because he can't play all these roles?
 
I agree with T Butcher here. Lampard plays very well in the position hes meant to play in. Playing in other positions is an extra, but those other positions are meant for other players. The main point is that he does what hes paid to well.
 
Sorry, I can see the flaws in what I said, but it wasn't really my point.

I agree a player should be judged on how he plays in his position, but I think it is relevant if the position is one which is quite unique.
What I mean is the role Lampard plays is a rare one and one that a majority of teams will not allow him to play just like England do not.
I would like to see England try a 3 in midfield to allow Lampard that same luxury, because in any other system he hasn't got the ability to perform aswell, which is fair to be critical of him.

A simple statement is that he is good in a role for Chelsea which he should be rightly highly commended for, but if he played with Milan for example in their system or in a flat midfield 4 for England, he really isn't half the player he shows in that perfect role at Chelsea.
I think that is fair and also to compare, Arteta and Gerrard could slot into most system in most countries in most teams in my opinion and that is something which puts them above Lampard when judging a player solely against one another.

This is where I am asserting my judgement, if it makes sense?
 
steevio_uk said:
Sorry, I can see the flaws in what I said, but it wasn't really my point.

I agree a player should be judged on how he plays in his position, but I think it is relevant if the position is one which is quite unique.
What I mean is the role Lampard plays is a rare one and one that a majority of teams will not allow him to play just like England do not.
I would like to see England try a 3 in midfield to allow Lampard that same luxury, because in any other system he hasn't got the ability to perform aswell, which is fair to be critical of him.

A simple statement is that he is good in a role for Chelsea which he should be rightly highly commended for, but if he played with Milan for example in their system or in a flat midfield 4 for England, he really isn't half the player he shows in that perfect role at Chelsea.
I think that is fair and also to compare, Arteta and Gerrard could slot into most system in most countries in most teams in my opinion and that is something which puts them above Lampard when judging a player solely against one another.

This is where I am asserting my judgement, if it makes sense?
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I see what you're saying but it's not something I agree with. If Ronaldinho was English (big IF!), either him or Rooney would be left on the bench - you couldn't fit them both into a 4-4-2 system. That tells me the system is wrong, not the player. You're looking at it from the opposite perspective.

Anyway, we're way off topic now!
 
Yeah we are off topic but I will say that I agree the system is wrong.
But saying that, I'm sure Lampard will only agree that the Chelsea system is the one worth going for ;)

Anyways, I have decided I want Robbie Keane from Spurs. Berbatov can go do one.
 
T Butcher fan said:
I see what you're saying but it's not something I agree with. If Ronaldinho was English (big IF!), either him or Rooney would be left on the bench - you couldn't fit them both into a 4-4-2 system. That tells me the system is wrong, not the player. You're looking at it from the opposite perspective.

Anyway, we're way off topic now!
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By the way if Ronaldinho was English his name would be a little suprising and Rooney and Ronaldo easily fit into a 4-4-2 because this is what Man Utd play much of the time :lmao:

But a third boxer should not really step into the ring and I am being light hearted.

There is validity in both your respective positions and I think perhaps you are also slightly talking at crossed purposes.

Can you guys agree to disagree and all agree with me that Lampard has terrible diction and we can get back on topic?
 
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