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Arsenal Thread

beachryan said:
Also last night demonstrated that Pep has a very effective dark side. Bayern exhibited alot of the 'dark arts' that helped Barcelona so much during their peak.

If you watch the way Barca/Bayern press - if they fail to close down immediately, they almost always cynically foul a player. It's how they're able to maintain such a high line, but give themselves time to retreat if their pressing fails. But for some reason, referees almost never card them, so they're able to basically defend by fouling on the halfway line. It happened every time Arsenal tried to counter last night, a Bayern player attempted to kick their legs out. Every single time. When United played Barca in the two finals, we obviously got pwned. But anytime we tried to break, 'nice guy' players like Iniesta or Messi would just lightly knock out our ankles. Concede a free kick in a non-dangerous place, kick the ball away and then retreat into defensive shape.

Of course if you do the same to a Pep coached player, he goes down like Martinez/Busquets/Alves/Robben/Ribery, rolling, crying, flamboyantly gesturing to the ref about how his life is coming to an early end. And you know what? It works.
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That is spot on. I could totally see Martinez yesterday as Busquets Mk.2, he dived whenever he could at minimal contact and even called for treatment because Podolski's hand brushed his cheeks.
Watching these antics makes me really embarrassed to follow football. Sometimes I think to myself "what am I doing"? I totally get the criticism from fans of rugby and American football, cause many football players often act like real pussies.

Furthermore, the killing of counters at their root by constant fouling at the offensive half is another Guardiola trademark.

As for the diving, I doubt Pep had to tell Arjen Rob 'em to do it. It's in his nature. Last time I was so pissed off at his antics I think was in the world cup against Brazil, when he almost singlehandedly called all the fouls.

That was never a penalty - in fact it took him a little while to realise he was touched, therefore the absurd gap before his dive.
The penalty given late in the match wasn't a penalty neither. As Wenger later described, Rob 'em got in front of Koscielny and came to a sudden halt to provoke a contact on purpose. And looking at the replay, Koscielny didn't do anything.

It must be damn frustrating for professional players to have to deal with douchebags as Robben. Even Suarez isn't that bad I think.
No to mention the difference in criteria from the Premier League to CL. Some penalties we've been seeing in this CL are laughable by Premier League standards.

Oh, and before I forget, check this one out too:
YouTube - Arjen Robben Schwalbe gegen Bochum

So, any apologists want to tell us this wasn't a dive either?
 
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Strange that nobody talks about Podolski's goal.
Pep and Bayern are supposed to have a dark side, but was Podolski's goal a fair one ? I don't think so, he clearly pushed Lahm. That goal should never have been allowed.
Why aren't the Arsenal fans outraged about Podolski's cheating ?

It's only cheating if it's the opponent, England isn't different from Spain, drekkard...

You can talk as longas want about the supposedly cheating of Javi Martinez or Robben, but the main reason why Arsenal are out is the fact that they weren't good enough against a Bayern team that was there for the taking (because they were very average)...all the rest is self delusion.

As for the referee, look at yesterday's match between Barca and City: there is also plenty of controversy. People say the refs are not good enough. I don't buy that. IMO the rules are not good enough. Football as a sport has made a giant leap forward, but the rules are still largely the same as 40years ago. Look at the rules and change what causes controversy because the refs don't see it.Change the off-side rule,change the handsball rule, change the rule that says a GK should get a red card and his team a penalty and look at other rules....

The refs are not to blame, the rules are...
 
Ah here we go. I wish I could post stuff here without having my words distorted.

Podolski's goal was illegal and I made it clear in a previous post and I think every supporter here feels the same. As I said, maybe it was a case of "the boy who cried wolf" because Bayern players were diving so much, the referee didn't know when it was a foul or not anymore. Either that or he really didn't see it.
Now now, calling Podolski foul cheating is quite a big stretch of imagination isn't it, Gerd? The guy pushed his opponent and looked at the ref, maybe a bit surprised that he didn't call it, and merely played to the whistle. That's what managers ask of their players, right? Play to the whistle.
Comparing a foul not given to diving to con the referee is wild IMO.

As for discussing the merit and who deserved to win, I think it is pretty clear nobody here is moaning about the fact Arsenal went out of the CL. It was pretty obvious the team could not create the necessary chances and nobody is deluded here, least of all myself. I'm a critic of Wenger's current playing style and lack of directness. I am very aware that Arsenal's current style is good against smaller teams but quite predictable to stronger teams.

All I'm doing here is express my disgust at players like Robben and Martinez.

And I can't help but feel Arsenal gets the worse treatment in UEFA matters. When Eduardo dived once, they handed him a retrospective ban and the whole thing was a witch hunt!
Now see if UEFA is doing anything to punish recurrent divers like Robben. Every season, same shit! And nothing.

I think players will only stop diving like this when they start getting retrospective match bans based on video evidence, just like they did with Eduardo. Why single him out? Carry this thing on! Like, publish this new measure before the season begins for everyone to see, so that it isn't unfair to anyone.
See if they will be diving on such crucial matches, risking getting banned for knockout stage matches? I doubt it.

I think the cynical part of football must die. Incidents like Rivaldo feigning injury when the Turkish player hit him with a ball and the Ivory Coast player who pretended Kaka elbowed him in the face, and the Martinez drama and the Busquets peek-a-boo incident, and so on. These incidents should be analysed on video and be dealt with extreme strictness.

As for the rules of football, I agree they're far from perfect, but referees are pretty shit. Yesterday Barcelona had a goal ruled out for a ridiculous offside decision, when Alba was a few meters behind Kompany in fact. There was a non-offisde incident again damaging Barcelona in the 1st leg too, and then there was the penalty on Messi that should be outside the box, and I could go on and on.
The matches are so affected by bad refereeing, it's not even funny.
It's pretty clear they need help, and it's not from those muppets that stay beside the goals and are a total waste of space.
But then we would be back to the arguments about technology.

I was watching a TV show someone posted here about the 2010 WC and showed something which blows this thing wide open for me: USA had a totally legit goal cancelled against Slovenia, and the fans in US (where "soccer" is only beginning to catch up) were all puzzled by that decision and wanted to know what went on, but no explanation was given. As we know it, on American sports the refs owe an explanation to the public, and they even have mics which they use to announce "foul by no.13 on no.22", and so on... because they are helped by technology and the whole thing is so efficient. But with "soccer" the ref whistles, the goal is ruled out and everyone wants to know why, while the ref has that face that almost says "it's none of your f*cking business".

I think it's madness that at this day and age football at this level is still played without the use of technology. Even worse on World Cups, when a NT's work of 4 years can go down the drain because of a bad call.
Not only video analysis would help refs make right decisions but they would also create a deterrent for the all divers and cheaters around. I think this is key to cleaning up the game.

Goal line technology isn't nowhere near enough and those FIFA and UEFA dinosaurs should try and keep up with the times, otherwise the reasons behind the decision not to use technology in the game will get more and more suspect.
 
Could you give me one reason why what Podolski did is not cheating and a dive is ? One objective reason. Just like Robben hopes the ref will not see his dive, Podolski hopes that the ref will not see his push on Lahm. Where is the difference ? The only difference is that Robben does not play for Arsenal. You wouldn't talk about cheating if an Arsenal player would dive (remember Santi Cazorla last season against - i think - Stoke, Arsenal won that match because of a dive, was there any outrage over here ? I don't think so).

Would you have moaned about the diving and the dark side of Bayern if Arsenal would have been qualified ? No you wouldn't.

I agree with what you write about the rules, but not about the refs. Did you actually ever try to be a ref ? I do it regularly for my son's team. I've been a player, a coach and a ref, being a ref is by far the most difficult thing to do on a pitch. Although your post is a very good one (they usually are, i like discussing with you), i don't agree with your example for the disallowed off-side goal from Barcelona. I agree that it wasn't off-side, but i only was convinced about that after 3 slow motion replays...the linesmen had to watch between a wood of bodies and legs and there were indeed two Barcelona players off-side...IMO they didn't influence the play, but that is open for debate...i wonder how many people here would have made the correct discussion (and even now i tend to agree with you, but i'm not sure it was the correct decision). In fact, your example is the perfect example that the rules are far too complex...why not change the off-side rule ? Why not a a line 10 metres outside the box. If a ball comes from within that distance, players never can be off-side (for example, it's only an example how the rules could be changed) ?

Oh, and don't take what i write personal...Bale's diving never outraged me like Ronaldo's diving...i'm not above all this...i'm just the same as most other fans...and perhaps monday i will moan about the ref after Spurs' defeat against Arsenal, that the first goal was off-side and that one could argue that the fifth was preceded by a push that the ref didn't see...
 
Arsenal investigate claims Bendtner 'unbuttoned his trousers and rubbed himself against taxi' as driver insists he was 'worst drunk he's seen in 25 years'

:LOL:
 
gerd said:
Could you give me one reason why what Podolski did is not cheating and a dive is ? One objective reason. Just like Robben hopes the ref will not see his dive, Podolski hopes that the ref will not see his push on Lahm. Where is the difference ? The only difference is that Robben does not play for Arsenal.
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Firstly, what Podolski did was 'part of the game' - being physical when going for a loose ball is a pretty important part of football. If Lahm had been a centre back, he probably wouldn't have fallen over from that. It's still a foul, but there's a massive difference in thought process between that and Robben's issues with gravity.

Robben, twice in that match, actively threw out his legs to go to ground. As in, the defensive contact in no way caused him to fall down. He chose to fall down. The first was worse - when a slight touch on his back leg caused his front leg, hips, upper body and arms to flail forward. But the second was pretty bad too - he waited for any contact whatsoever by slowing down in front of Koscielny, and then when he felt it, crumbled like a piece of paper. I mean for the penalty, he managed to revolve 360 degrees and look back at the ref before he'd even hit the ground!

Anyway, even those two incidents are different from my issue with Pep's tactics. Pep encourages systematic fouling. It's how his systems work. Constantly break up any chance of momentum by using small, niggling fouls. Part of me respects it - it is a brilliant 'bending' of the rules to his advantage. But it makes it tough for me to appreciate how awesome his teams have been.
 
beachryan said:
Firstly, what Podolski did was 'part of the game' - being physical when going for a loose ball is a pretty important part of football. If Lahm had been a centre back, he probably wouldn't have fallen over from that. It's still a foul, but there's a massive difference in thought process between that and Robben's issues with gravity.

Robben, twice in that match, actively threw out his legs to go to ground. As in, the defensive contact in no way caused him to fall down. He chose to fall down. The first was worse - when a slight touch on his back leg caused his front leg, hips, upper body and arms to flail forward. But the second was pretty bad too - he waited for any contact whatsoever by slowing down in front of Koscielny, and then when he felt it, crumbled like a piece of paper. I mean for the penalty, he managed to revolve 360 degrees and look back at the ref before he'd even hit the ground!

Anyway, even those two incidents are different from my issue with Pep's tactics. Pep encourages systematic fouling. It's how his systems work. Constantly break up any chance of momentum by using small, niggling fouls. Part of me respects it - it is a brilliant 'bending' of the rules to his advantage. But it makes it tough for me to appreciate how awesome his teams have been.
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I don't see any difference whatsoever with what Podolski did...he also cheated IMO...must be a cultural thing...or maybe it's just me.
 
Is there a difference between attempting to gain an advantage by going outside the laws of the game and cheating? Isn't that what cheating is?

Fouling someone on purpose (aka a professional foul) fits that description whereas trying to get the ball but fouling the player doesn't.

It's all about intention. With diving it's easier to spot the intention. Tho I think there is something more repulsive about diving than intentionally fouling someone. It's the invention of wrongdoing where there is non I guess. It's a bit like how lying about being raped is worse than punching someone.
 
gerd said:
Could you give me one reason why what Podolski did is not cheating and a dive is ? One objective reason. Just like Robben hopes the ref will not see his dive, Podolski hopes that the ref will not see his push on Lahm. Where is the difference ? The only difference is that Robben does not play for Arsenal. You wouldn't talk about cheating if an Arsenal player would dive (remember Santi Cazorla last season against - i think - Stoke, Arsenal won that match because of a dive, was there any outrage over here ? I don't think so).

Would you have moaned about the diving and the dark side of Bayern if Arsenal would have been qualified ? No you wouldn't.

I agree with what you write about the rules, but not about the refs. Did you actually ever try to be a ref ? I do it regularly for my son's team. I've been a player, a coach and a ref, being a ref is by far the most difficult thing to do on a pitch. Although your post is a very good one (they usually are, i like discussing with you), i don't agree with your example for the disallowed off-side goal from Barcelona. I agree that it wasn't off-side, but i only was convinced about that after 3 slow motion replays...the linesmen had to watch between a wood of bodies and legs and there were indeed two Barcelona players off-side...IMO they didn't influence the play, but that is open for debate...i wonder how many people here would have made the correct discussion (and even now i tend to agree with you, but i'm not sure it was the correct decision). In fact, your example is the perfect example that the rules are far too complex...why not change the off-side rule ? Why not a a line 10 metres outside the box. If a ball comes from within that distance, players never can be off-side (for example, it's only an example how the rules could be changed) ?

Oh, and don't take what i write personal...Bale's diving never outraged me like Ronaldo's diving...i'm not above all this...i'm just the same as most other fans...and perhaps monday i will moan about the ref after Spurs' defeat against Arsenal, that the first goal was off-side and that one could argue that the fifth was preceded by a push that the ref didn't see...
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To me it's very simple: fouling isn't cheating, it is simply an infraction. We would have to get inside Podolski's head to know if he did that in a deliberate way or just as a part of the game routine. You see a nudge like that hundreds of times, but usually a foul is given. We are only having this disussion because nothing was given, bizarrely.
On the other hand, with a Robben dive you don't have to be a mind reader to know what he is looking for.
I'll give you another example about fouling: Vincent Kompany had a great game against Barcelona IMO, but I have to say I lost count of how many fouls he committed. It must have been double figures. Many times against Messi and Neymar he stopped them with fouls, breaking up playing flow. However, I cannot call that cheating. Especially not in the same bracket as diving. Otherwise, every foul is a piece of cheating.
Ironically, Kompany only got booked for a Neymar dive!

If the governing bodies are to sanitise the game and consider every foul a form of cheating, they should include a rule like NBA basketball. After a certain amount of personal fouls, the player is out.
Either that or some sort of punishment for collective fouls - now that would sort out the practitioners of the dark arts like Guardiola who constantly look to stop play with fouls on the offensive half, in order to regroup at the back.
This is something to think about, because professional fouls are a cynical part of the game, when the player "takes one for the team". Most of those are already met with punishment with yellow cards and, if the player is the last man, red cards.

I agree with you about the bias thing, we don't get as angry when one of our players cheat. The Cazorla dive was in the 2012/13 season against Sunderland if I remember correctly. I wasn't proud of that but I agree that we're not as angry as when an opposition player dives. Every supporter has some sort of bias.
But what's really important is the fact we didn't see Cazorla ever diving again after that incident. Maybe Wenger talked to him about that, as it was his first season in the Premiership.
Whatever happened, I never saw any more of that.
Before that Cazorla dive, I'd have to go back to Eduardo's dive. I can't remember anything in between.
It's funny that Wenger's more recent Arsenal sides got a reputation of being softies who can't handle physicality and "don't like to be kicked a bit". Because when you look at teams like Stoke, for as much as they're labelled as tough, they dive way much more than Arsenal. I can remember a handful of dives by that fella Walters alone.

Sorry, I digress. I'd just say we shouldn't mention an isolated incident of a Cazorla dive over an year ago, to try to better accept the behaviour of a repeat offender like Robben, who systematically dives at all levels: in domestic cups and leagues, in the Champions League and at the World Cup too.

As for the refereeing, I know it must not be easy and I appreciate your angle: someone who officiates at amateur level. Even then it must not be an easy task, and I can only imagine that, because I have never tried it myself.
But I'd like to think that a professional linesman, well paid to do what he does, would get it right for a call like the Jordi Alba offside.
Either way, be it an unavoidable human mistake or poor officiating, it raises the question of the use of technology again. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, you know I'm for using technology, but I just remembered another example: in the 2010 WC, Argentina scored an offside goal through Tevez. While the Mexican players remonstrated with the linesman, the guy in charge of replays in the big screen showed it for all the stadium to see it.
The Mexicans saw it, the Argentines saw it, and the Italian officials saw it. You could see on the ref's face he wanted to go back and rule out the goal, but he also knew he couldn't. All because of the stubborn stupidity of FIFA.

Anyways... Regarding the North London derby, are you expecting a fifth goal from Arsenal? At White Hart Lane? Haha, you can't be serious! :D
Given the circumstances, a draw wouldn't be a bad result for Arsenal.
 
I didn't watch that match but I heard they were pretty bad. However, Spurs will always turn up against Arsenal. It's one of those things about a derby, no matter how bad one of the teams has been playing, somehow they rise up to the occasion.
I expect it to be a close one. Let's see!
 
The game today is huge, if we win it basically keeps us in the title fight, cements our place in the top four further, or if we lose our title chances are dealt a massive blow and also even staying In the top 4 could be in danger.

I expect a draw but we really do need the win, I wouldn't be surprised though if Spurs play the match of their season though :((

I can't wait! :DD
 
Off to a flying start! What a goal by Rosicky!

But Mike Dean is the ref today, so you know how that's gonna go!
 
great goal but Spurs have been all over us that half. We need to start doing something, they are bound to score if we keep letting them come at us.
 
Don't worry, Spurs probably won't score and Arsenal will get 2-3 more on counters and possibly even more as Spurs fold.
 
Well Arsenal have learned to win ugly...good win, well done...

As for my team...could have been worse...i think Bobby predicted correct: this is probably (one of) the best performance(s) of the season by Spurs. That is the sad reality.

Bobby feared that a best performance of the season would be a win, but it isn't.

Good goal from a player i have always loved... and it was a good match to watch.

Congratulations, i can't say it was an undeserved win...
 
Wow, despite Sczcesny's best (worst) efforts, we actually won this!

Very poor match from Cazorla and Ox today. But Rosicky's brilliant strike and Mertesacker and Koscielny's excellent defending secured the win for us.

But my oh my, do they love a complicated match! If we weren't so wasteful, we wouldn't have this tense ending to the derby.

Good win anyway and Chelsea here we come! With one game in hand too!
 
we defended well on the most part, but if we have the same game plan against Chelsea then we are never going to win imo.

We just need to start playing better.

It's such a strange season, I can't even think of a handful of games where I think we played great, yet we are joint second in the league.

Our defence has been much better than it has in many years, it is the main reason we can grind out results.

A win is a win though and against Spurs I am still happy of course, but Spurs deserve alot more out of that match.
 
Rumour in Belgian press: Michy Batschuayi from Standard to Arsenal.
He is great in our competition, but will that be enough to be great for Arsenal ?
 
And another rumour in our papers: Vermaelen to Manchester City.
This makes sense: Vermaelen-Kompany are the regular CB's of our national team.

Personally i prefer Vertonghen to Vermaelen. But i'm not objective, i've always loved Vertonghen. He is not always the nicest guy on the pitch, but off the pitch he is a great guy. Very atypical for a football player.
 
Vermaelen is good , Per+Koscielny keeps Capt. Verm on the bench . I personally rather have Verm on the LB . He does these suicidial lunges that leaves him chasing attackers though. You can see how Spurs kept placing air balls and Perscielny look like pigeons in Central Park picking bread crumbs w/ ease! I wish we bought another GK .
 
Vermalean could be so good to Manchester City! He usually plays with Kompany in Belgium NT. They should know each know very well and in my opinion City needs a CB.
 
And City would take another step towards completion of their Arsenal sticker album.

I've always liked Vermaelen, especially in his first season because of all the goals he scored. He's got a great left foot, loves to attack a header and is strong and agile. But his mistakes are costly and he's finding it hard to get into the first XI at Arsenal because Mertesacker and Koscielny have such a telepatic relationship and almost never do those mistakes.

He will probably leave indeed in the summer, continuing the tradition of selling captains. I just hope for once Wenger would sell one of his good players to a team outside England.

I'd say sell Bendtner to a Premier League team! :D
 
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