Chilleverest
League 1
- 6 June 2018
You have my money if you lots manage to get Seabass on the side.
Creating A New Football Game
- Thread starter JosePedroFan
- Start date
Buzzer
Non-League
- 22 October 2011
Is it the Parkstone guy?
janguv
Premiership
- 2 November 2016
Nope.. dunno what that means haha?
Edit: oh fuck about, is this Khazi?
Didn't expect you to have an EvoWeb account lol. No, I wasn't referring to you. Fellow PENner though: Munkfish actually.
Buzzer
Non-League
- 22 October 2011
Nope.. dunno what that means haha?
Edit: oh fuck about, is this Khazi?
No it’s not Khazi,
It’s me Brizz
Salemander
Non-League
- 30 August 2020
Bro these are impressive ideas, imagine if we got that in a football gameOk but... what a project manager does?I don't have programming experience (just some very very basic Visual Basic 🤓), neither 3D modeling, and of course no experience in things like a game development
. However, I have lot of ideas for things outside-the-pitch (modes, editor and such) and I'm able to create UI mockups like a did in the past for Master League (some examples:
).
If I were a project manager, the first steps would be:
1. Find one/two programmers to develop the very basics of the game
2. Find one graphic artist for creating very basic 2D and 3D elements (a simple pitch with lines and the gates) and then so on.
Is this right? Or I'm completely wrong?🤪
I'd be very interested in helping. Here's a crazy idea: for the past few years I've been tempted to develop a deep learning algorithm to mimic player movements realistically. The main premise is that we would train neural networks by feeding this algorithm high-quality footage from different games and make it understand what the natural/realistic football player movement is. There are tons of hours of footage and we even get a free green-screen in the turf itself! Shouldn't be hard to at least get relatively realistic moving sprites as a starter. Using this we could probably develop a very realistic football simulation game, but we wouldn't be able to get 3d models from it, at least easily I think. That would require a deeper understanding of sprite to 3D depth conversion and many other shenanigans, thus some 3D software might help like Unity or Unreal Engine! Perhaps it's asking too much, but it might fun to try and I'd be willing to, but I'd need motivated people with me. Maybe motion capture isn't needed if we simply take enough footage. What do you think?
Badger Mushroom
Championship
Ok but... what a project manager does?
If I were a project manager, the first steps would be:
1. Find one/two programmers to develop the very basics of the game
2. Find one graphic artist for creating very basic 2D and 3D elements (a simple pitch with lines and the gates) and then so on.
Is this right? Or I'm completely wrong?🤪
Realistically, there's a great deal of things that would need to happen before you go straight to programming.
- What's the mission statement, what are we trying to achieve?
- Lay out the ground rules and a plan, so everyone knows what the tasks are and in what order they need to be tackled with estimated timelines
- Fundamentals / how best to approach building the game
- Phyics, player models, pitch, animations, goals, etc.
- Can they be split across multiple developers, or should this sit witha single person?
- Is someone going to design these aspects first, so everyone has a clear view of what the end goal is?
- Game modes
- Assume that 'exhibition mode' would be the fundamental focus initially
- Single player, local multi-player, non-local multi-player considerations
- AI
- Consideration on tactics, etc.
- Individuality, skills, etc.
- Menu / UI
- Design considerations
- Phyics, player models, pitch, animations, goals, etc.
You can't just jump in without a lot of this done up front, otherwise no-one is aligned and they're all off doing their own thing. I've worked in ERP software design / implementation for over 20 years, and this is all required normally. The same would apply to any game design as well
I’d invest and help where I can, I have no idea about programming but my skill set could be useful for implementing player stats/ tactics & team styles if that was needed. I’ve played at and worked in performance analysis at quite a high level.
What I’d like from a new game, which would realistically be an indie/ Kickstarter budget game, is gameplay like PES 6 for the Xbox 360 but with current/ next gen graphics overlaid and an extensive edit mode with sharing capabilities so that the game could be released as a blank canvas with only an official player database.
I think PES 6 on 360 is a bit of a masterpiece as it nails all the basics and feel of the PS2 era and adds a few advancements on top which help with immersion. Perfectly blends fun and realism for me. I don’t feel like it’s outdated at all from a gameplay point of view, I know there have been many advancements such as 360 dribbling, but I don’t feel the gameplay misses those things.
With today’s technology, how difficult would it be to accomplish gameplay on a technical level like that? I assume the graphics side of thing would be fairly easy.
Edit: It’s not beyond the realms of possibility if the right skill set, ideas and enthusiasm could be put together in a team. There’s loads of indie games on Steam that start as kickstarters etc. And become genuinely good games through the skill and passion of the developers. Hell let loose is a perfect example and that was entering a more saturated market than football games. If you can make a genuinely good game, people will play it. And you can’t tell me there there’s a more passionate user base for a realistic WW2 shooter than there would be for a new football game.
What I’d like from a new game, which would realistically be an indie/ Kickstarter budget game, is gameplay like PES 6 for the Xbox 360 but with current/ next gen graphics overlaid and an extensive edit mode with sharing capabilities so that the game could be released as a blank canvas with only an official player database.
I think PES 6 on 360 is a bit of a masterpiece as it nails all the basics and feel of the PS2 era and adds a few advancements on top which help with immersion. Perfectly blends fun and realism for me. I don’t feel like it’s outdated at all from a gameplay point of view, I know there have been many advancements such as 360 dribbling, but I don’t feel the gameplay misses those things.
With today’s technology, how difficult would it be to accomplish gameplay on a technical level like that? I assume the graphics side of thing would be fairly easy.
Edit: It’s not beyond the realms of possibility if the right skill set, ideas and enthusiasm could be put together in a team. There’s loads of indie games on Steam that start as kickstarters etc. And become genuinely good games through the skill and passion of the developers. Hell let loose is a perfect example and that was entering a more saturated market than football games. If you can make a genuinely good game, people will play it. And you can’t tell me there there’s a more passionate user base for a realistic WW2 shooter than there would be for a new football game.
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I’d be very interested in assisting with this because it’s something I’ve already been investigating on my own. I’ve been tired of the direction Fifa and Pes have been trending towards for the las 5 years or so. I have lots of programming experience in ERP software and some experience making games in Unity. Unfortunately, I don’t have much experience in unreal. I’m currently going through a course on my own to get me up to speed on unreal and I should be done within a month or so at my pace. If you’re serious about this, I think it’s something that needs to be done. It can be done in manner similar to project cars.
Yea, you actually have to create game design doc prior to building. One of the things I’d like to prototype before even attempting to build a game is on ball and off ball movement. Movement is so critical to football that broken movement in my opinion ruins the game. By that, I’m referring to spacing, momentum, balance/ability to off balance a player, etc. FIFA’s movement is completely unrealistic with too much sliding and pes is completely unresponsive.
As far as I understand, you lose a lot of performance using blueprints in unreal no?
godoffootball
League 1
- 17 December 2017
- Staff
- #134
My 2.5¥ contribution 
https://evoweb.uk/threads/efootball...pes-come-pay-your-respects.83625/post-3731930
By far the most realistic shot of achieving anything. Track these guys, if there are any ...
Anything else is simply pissing in the wind.
https://evoweb.uk/threads/efootball...pes-come-pay-your-respects.83625/post-3731930
By far the most realistic shot of achieving anything. Track these guys, if there are any ...
Anything else is simply pissing in the wind.
gabe.paul.logan
Retired Footballer
Just bear in mind probably a sports game is one of the most complex if not the most to code and animate.
Just think about all the possibilities, references, layers....like compared to an FPS game. And you barely find any templates, materials, codes unlike for any other genres.
Im the riskmanager i guess.
Just think about all the possibilities, references, layers....like compared to an FPS game. And you barely find any templates, materials, codes unlike for any other genres.
Im the riskmanager i guess.
FCDallas_Fan
League 1
- 23 September 2018
What you're describing would benefit 3d rigging. Models would still be required.
lazanet
Conference
I had a similar idea for a long long while. I haven't announced anything before having at least some proof of concept, considering that most projects of this scope die quietly after making a huge splash.
So my 2 cents in a form of a project idea that I'm going to pursue as a hobby project while working in a Fortune 100 company, now that I finally got my B.SE. degree:
Gameplay Football is a great basis for a 3D football game. It aimed to replicate PES6 look n feel, however original author dropped this project and released its source code under Unlicense License. Google has forked this project and used it for AI training. Repository that contains back-ported Google provided fixes is available under Apache 2.0 license.
Main issue with this project is that it is using a custom 3D engine (Blunted), which is undocumented, tricky to build and port, and it is heavily multi-threaded. Original author actually advised that game logic and gameplay should be ported to some more established game engine.
Regarding target game engine, most popular choices are Unreal and Unity. This is IMHO a false choice dilemma. Both aforementioned engines are proprietary and feature heavy licensing clauses which could limit flexibility of game distribution and development over time.
My personal choice is Godot Engine. It aims to be a fully free and open source alternative to the Unity engine, with support for various programming languages and rendering backends. Recently Godot Engine was granted a MegaGrant by Epic games, in order to fund its development. It supports all of the major platforms.
My goal is that all of the source code for this game is released under GPLv3 license, which would allow for big and vibrant modding community, while making sure that all of the commercial forks would remain open source. This would be in line with our modding community background and would ensure player-first approach.
Regarding choice of programming language, I would strongly advise against using any sort of "visual language". It might seem counter intuitive at first but having no programmer at all is better than having an unexperienced drag-n-drop-er who will create more havoc that meaningful contributions. If you want an example of what bad programmer might do to a video game development, just take a look at YandereDev. I would also strongly advise against using non garbage collected language, since memory leaks are truly a bitch when you are in a small team. My preference for this game's development would either be GodotScript (a subset of Python which would allow frictionless development) or C# (which has a benefit of having a similar syntax to C++, so porting code from GamePlay Football would be easier).
Development would be self-funded at first (e.g external 3D modeler and animator would need to be paid), while later development work would profit from Patreon, paid DLCs with licensed teams for online play, ads on default stadiums, and potential licensing deals where we would provide a custom version of the game engine for the specific market.
So my 2 cents in a form of a project idea that I'm going to pursue as a hobby project while working in a Fortune 100 company, now that I finally got my B.SE. degree:
Gameplay Football is a great basis for a 3D football game. It aimed to replicate PES6 look n feel, however original author dropped this project and released its source code under Unlicense License. Google has forked this project and used it for AI training. Repository that contains back-ported Google provided fixes is available under Apache 2.0 license.
Main issue with this project is that it is using a custom 3D engine (Blunted), which is undocumented, tricky to build and port, and it is heavily multi-threaded. Original author actually advised that game logic and gameplay should be ported to some more established game engine.
Regarding target game engine, most popular choices are Unreal and Unity. This is IMHO a false choice dilemma. Both aforementioned engines are proprietary and feature heavy licensing clauses which could limit flexibility of game distribution and development over time.
My personal choice is Godot Engine. It aims to be a fully free and open source alternative to the Unity engine, with support for various programming languages and rendering backends. Recently Godot Engine was granted a MegaGrant by Epic games, in order to fund its development. It supports all of the major platforms.
My goal is that all of the source code for this game is released under GPLv3 license, which would allow for big and vibrant modding community, while making sure that all of the commercial forks would remain open source. This would be in line with our modding community background and would ensure player-first approach.
Regarding choice of programming language, I would strongly advise against using any sort of "visual language". It might seem counter intuitive at first but having no programmer at all is better than having an unexperienced drag-n-drop-er who will create more havoc that meaningful contributions. If you want an example of what bad programmer might do to a video game development, just take a look at YandereDev. I would also strongly advise against using non garbage collected language, since memory leaks are truly a bitch when you are in a small team. My preference for this game's development would either be GodotScript (a subset of Python which would allow frictionless development) or C# (which has a benefit of having a similar syntax to C++, so porting code from GamePlay Football would be easier).
Development would be self-funded at first (e.g external 3D modeler and animator would need to be paid), while later development work would profit from Patreon, paid DLCs with licensed teams for online play, ads on default stadiums, and potential licensing deals where we would provide a custom version of the game engine for the specific market.
FCDallas_Fan
League 1
- 23 September 2018
Godot is a great choice and is very fun to tinker with. For the programming language, I agree with 85% of your comment, but would avoid C# as it's not made to work well with Linux and MacOS. I know Microsoft released Mono for Linux to bridge the gap, but still not worth it in my opinion. The programming language should be a systems language that is also very performant such as C++ or Rust.
- Thread starter
- #139
JosePedroFan
League 1
- 17 June 2020
UE4 is FAR superior to Godot. Much more developed, much more versatile, and far quicker to develop in than Godot (because of Blueprints).
Unity is the best for mobile apps in my opinion
FCDallas_Fan
League 1
- 23 September 2018
You're completely missing the point @lazanet and I were trying to make. UE has very restrictive licensing if y'all try to make money on the product. Also, UE isn't nearly as extensible. Finally, UE development on Linux is awful.
lazanet
Conference
Mono was actually an open source reverse-engineering effort designed to replicate .net for unsupported platforms (since dotnet was proprietary and Windows specific at the time). Microsoft recently open sourced .net framework itself, and is contributing to Mono as well, trough their subsidiary - Xamarin.
Mono is stable enough to be used by Unity on all platforms by default (until recently when they switched to dotnet on Windows). I'm running Linux with Mono on all of my machines for last 6 years with little or no issues. Incompatibilities that I encountered were related to the Windows API which isn't necessary for the game creation (I feel really sorry for anyone that relies on that sort of broken mess, as it is IMO in a worse state than xorg).
As for language preference although as a systems guy I agree with your point that it would be great if everything is written in a high performant language, the truth is that in the modern day and age game logic is the least CPU demanding part of video games. If you take a look at the design decisions taken by big development studios you will see that almost all of them are using scripting languages for rapid development (including old PES games and GTA to name a few).
Thing is that taking care of memory and dangling pointers in C++, or forcing guys to learn a new programming paradigm and alien syntax while working on a hobby project is a REALLY cost ineffective way of handling unpaid development time. And it would result in maybe 3-5 fps increase since most of the computation is in rendering and physics engine which are unrelated to the scripting part of this game. Furthermore, after spending 8 hours per day debugging some weird stack overflow during my day job, there is no way I'm doing the same thing for video game development.
Also Mono in Godot supports Ahead of Time compilation which would bring performance to C++ like levels if scripting language ever becomes a bottleneck.
I addressed all of those things in my previous post, and you should read it since it is very informative. However I will repeat several key elements:
1) Blueprints WILL cause your "Visual Codebase" to become a huge unmaintainable pile of trash - since it is designed for non-programmers. Using visual languages for a serious project is equivalent of claiming that your bicycle is better than mine, since yours features training wheels.
2) All of the shinny new features that UE and Unity have are a great selling point - when you have a working game. Yeah, the end product in Godot will not be as polished as a game that is created by a AAA studio in UE without thinkering. However, the code base in Godot would be 100% open source and thus every part of game would be customizable. On the other hand, showelware games will look like junk regardless of engine they are created on. No amount of fanboy debates will change that.
- Thread starter
- #142
JosePedroFan
League 1
- 17 June 2020
Whatever agree to disagree I guess. I just want to bring up that some AAA game studios who use Unreal Engine have confirmed that they use blueprints for coding, so they are also valuable to experienced programmers
TheKusanagiBlade
Dragon Screamer
To me, either works. Heck, I'd even try it if they were combined, kinda like SWOS (the arcade being the stick-and-one-button gameplay, and the simulation being the manager mode). Or maybe something like Super Soccer Blast with a Master League-like mode added to it would work for me.
I feel like if the situation calls for it, you can have your cake and eat it.
I feel like if the situation calls for it, you can have your cake and eat it.
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lazanet
Conference
Source for that claim? All that I saw is that Rocket League uses it for the UI, and that level designers love it since they can hack level related logic on the fly. And that is okay if it aligns with your project goals.
However when developing a football game, your football engine IS the game. There is litteraly no need for non-programmer developers, and (sans animation) all of the art and programing assignments are clearly separated.
My honest advice would be that you need to assemble a good and experienced team that can produce a MVP (minimum viable product). Before that, any discussion regarding type of gameplay, art style or whatnot, is a waste of time and hype. You will see that this is a much bigger project than you anticipated.
- Thread starter
- #145
JosePedroFan
League 1
- 17 June 2020
Konami said that they used it for PES22. I'll find the other ones that I saw earlier in a bit
bingbongler
Non-League
- 24 July 2021
I support this idea, but I don't think this has any chance of making it off the ground if you all are trying to make a hyper realistic football game. You just won't have the resources to accomplish that. I think it's best to aim for something reasonable. Tons of PES fans have been begging for years to have a remaster of PES 6 released. I think making a spiritual successor to that game would be a good way to get people on board. I've gone back to PES 6 and it's crazy how much it holds up in 2021.
At a bare minimum I think if you can recapture the magic of PES 6's gameplay, then you have a recipe for success with updating the outdated things in that game. Graphics, animations, slowing down the pace, adding in manual and semi assisted passing/shooting, etc.
Just my two cents. I can't really offer anything to this kind of project other than a ton of ideas, direction, and/or making some menu music.
Good luck
At a bare minimum I think if you can recapture the magic of PES 6's gameplay, then you have a recipe for success with updating the outdated things in that game. Graphics, animations, slowing down the pace, adding in manual and semi assisted passing/shooting, etc.
Just my two cents. I can't really offer anything to this kind of project other than a ton of ideas, direction, and/or making some menu music.
Good luck
FCDallas_Fan
League 1
- 23 September 2018
I would encourage you to read more into Blueprints. They are nothing more than a better, visual version of UE's original scripting language and were developed to be used as an end point by designers and level designers to stitch systems together (which are developed in C++ btw). For a sports game example, Blueprints would be used to piece together complex character movements from the C++ modules, such as a locomotion system. Want to create an AI system? You have to write the custom code in C++ then you can use Blueprints to invoke the code.
If you develop complex games (like a sports title), it must be developed on C++ if you care about performance. Most indie titles don't have this problem because they are more about developing fast since their projects don't require the optimizations C++ offers. And if something is affecting your framerate that is not graphics-related, only C++ can help you.
One of the primary UE developers described it like this: "Think of a Lego set. C++ programmers create each Lego piece while Blueprints are the instructions for where each piece is placed."
tldr; Blueprints are for designers to stiitch together the functionality from whatever systems your C++ developers create.
EDIT: I should add, I'm speaking from experience. I've done a lot of contract development work for a proprietary game engine still in use today. I can talk about game engine technology all day and probably bore myself lol
- Thread starter
- #148
JosePedroFan
League 1
- 17 June 2020
I'm also speaking from experience, I've worked on several multi-year projects that were released on platforms like Steam.
But we'll just agree to disagree on how useful Blueprints are
I looked into Godot and for me, it’s a non starter. I understand the restrictive licensing of Unreal but, I’m not making a football game to become a millionaire, I’m making the game because there are no good football games and the last good one was almost a decade ago. Furthermore, Epic has alternative licensing agreements should the game get big enough to warrant concerns regarding Epic’s cut.