Creating A New Football Game

Should we make an arcady soccer game or a realistic one?

  • Arcady Game (Much quicker and easier to make, higher probability of a released game)

  • Realistic Game (Will take much longer and lower probability of being released)

Results are only viewable after voting.
ShadowBot said:
I looked into Godot and for me, it’s a non starter. I understand the restrictive licensing of Unreal but, I’m not making a football game to become a millionaire, I’m making the game because there are no good football games and the last good one was almost a decade ago. Furthermore, Epic has alternative licensing agreements should the game get big enough to warrant concerns regarding Epic’s cut.
Click to expand...
Exactly, Godot would be awful for this project
 
toside said:
I havent seen any good 3D game which made in Godot
Click to expand...
I have seen a lot of shitty games created in UE and Unreal. Heck, Gameplay Football has an engine that is written from scratch using OpenGL and SDL.

Choice of game engine is really only a small part of overall game development process, and all of the shortcomings of Godot engine can be removed by contribution to an open source game engine by an experienced programmer. Also, creating a game that would become a poster child of the whole engine puts it in a very good spot regarding first party support from engine developers.
ShadowBot said:
I looked into Godot and for me, it’s a non starter. I understand the restrictive licensing of Unreal but, I’m not making a football game to become a millionaire, I’m making the game because there are no good football games and the last good one was almost a decade ago. Furthermore, Epic has alternative licensing agreements should the game get big enough to warrant concerns regarding Epic’s cut.
Click to expand...
This isn't only question about a monetary part, it is also a question about larger perspective. PES modding community was always heavily reliant upon reverse engineering and hacking of proprietary engines. I've been there and done that. You can also ask nesa24, juce and sxsxsx, they will all confirm how thrilled they were about staring at disassembly for dozens of hours in order to provide you all with a way to change turf length and camera zoom.

With fully open source stack several things are guaranteed:
1) Every aspect of the game and its engine can be modded, since all of the source code is available.
2) Full source code will always be available. Even when there are drastic changes to OS's and hardware are introduced, people will be able to port the entire code-base and use it as they see fit. For example, there is no reason why this game shouldn't be portable to Raspberry PI or to a new version of Windows without some nasty bugs and workarounds (like those we need to use for PES6 ATM).
3) There is no external dependency on a big company, nor its ecosystem, which ensures that project is free to be governed by its community.

When I presented this proposal I have taken into consideration what other modding communities did when they ventured into creating alternative engines for playing their favorite games. Some examples of that are:
1) GTA modding community that created excellent re3 - engine written from scratch that can run GTA3, GTAVC and GTALCS at the moment.
2) Elder Scrolls modding community that created excellent Morrowind clone called OpenMW (also written from scratch)
3) Half Life modding community with their excellent Xash3D engine (written from scratch to be compatible with original GoldSrc engine)
4) Transport Tycoon Deluxe community that released their game OpenTTD on Steam.
5) RollerCoaster Tycoon community that created OpenRCT2
Thing that all of those have in common is that they are built using 100% open source stacks.

Thing is that we as a PES community don't need to create something that is binary compatible with original assets, which enables us to reuse some existing game engine. Still, trading all of above-mentioned positive sides for the shiny finish of a commercial engine, and thus turning modding community into pure consumers is something that I'm personally not OK with.
JosePedroFan said:
Exactly, Godot would be awful for this project
Click to expand...
I don't know your technical background so I'll respond based only from what I have read from your posts in this thread.

From what I've been able to discern, your plan was to buy marketplace assets, animation systems and scripts, get someone to link it all using visual programming language and then call it a day. Games that are developed this way are called Asset Flip games. Not only are those frowned upon by game critics, they are almost unilaterally badly reviewed by users. You can find tens of thousands of them that are created using UE on Google Play store.

You are right that Godot would be awful for that kind of project, since Godot lacks any sort of support for easy "asset flip" creation. Every bit of code would need to be written from the scratch or ported from Gameplay Football. This would be unfeasible for script-kiddies, but extremely doable for any group of experienced programmers. That said, porting Gameplay Football to the new engine, with same or better graphics is 100% possible and it is a straight-forward way for this community to have a working game engine with good gameplay in a reasonable time frame.

"Blueprint" is not at all a new idea. I was using similar programming paradigm in Game Maker 6, back in 2005. Eventually every developer there migrated to GML script when faced with increasing complexity of his code-base.

I wish you all of the best with your project idea, although I'm doubtful about its feasibility. I spilled my 2 cents here as my contribution to this discussion, but (as I announced in the original post) I will pursue my idea regardless of these developments.

EDIT:
JosePedroFan said:
It's great, but it's made with Blunted2D, which is a terrible engine. This makes it insanely difficult to develop the project further :(
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It is made using Blunted2 engine which is 3D, not 2D. Original author advised maintainers to move gameplay to some other game engine, since it is already decoupled from the engine logic.
 
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@lazanet Based on your first post, am I correct to assume you want to take the most recent fork of GameplayFootball and port the game to Godot? And if so, maintain the game as open source?
 
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Why is that beyond belief? Both engines use C++ at their core.
ANY competent C++ programmer, who also has 3D graphics programming mastery, can and should be able to do that.

This thread at some points ... just wow
 
Programming in general is not a simple skill, c++ makes it even harder, 3d expertise is even more rare ... so, why should a random guy with the rare skills do it for free? I'm surprised they want only 50 bucks ... sounds more like someone is trolling a gullible customer which cannot differentiate wrench from a screwdriver.

PES enthusiast with required skills, on the other hand, might be crazy enough to do such conversion for free


P.S. What others are referring to with quotes and dislikes are racist stereotypes such as "indian guy" and "chinese guy"
 
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toside said:
or chinese guy.I mean they are proposing lowest price like 45-50$

@zlac because @lazanet is talking like its very difficult.
Click to expand...

So... let me see if I get this traight:
You're assuming that because they are indian or chinese they are somewhat not capable of high level programming or designing?.
 
Feliplayz said:
Not true. You only have to pay 5% of what exceeds $1 million per product.
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I'm not talking money only. The UE license does not allow developers to release the engine source code as open source. So if I make changes to their source (extend a class, etc.), I cannot release that code. To do any code release of your game at all, you have to use one of Epic's approved Creative Commons licenses (not, not all are approved by Epic).

That's my fault, I should've been more clear in my original post that when you sell a game built on UE, you have licensing restrictions on source code.
 
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zlac said:
P.S. What others are referring to with quotes and dislikes are racist stereotypes such as "indian guy" and "chinese guy"
Click to expand...
OK, let's be serious. Have you ever seen a guy from, say, Croatia code?
Great tools like Kit Studio are made by the glorious master race, the Americ-oh wait.
Well, surely the tactics importer-exporter must have been made by an Ame-oh wait, nevermind. I give up.

Jokes apart, I can't see why the place a person comes from must influence their coding skills... Or their artistic skills for example. I'm from Italy, a country of poets and painters... And I can't either compose a good poem or draw. So I can't see why people from India or China must surely be worse (or better) than the others at coding just because they're from India or China.
 
To give toside the benefit of the doubt, I got the impression he was merely responding to lazanet's post about the size of the task and was asking if the conversion of an existing football game to Unreal could be done cheaply by an Indian programmer. He linked to a recent example where a football game conversion had been quoted at only $45 by an Indian programmer (average incomes in India are much lower than say US/UK, so they often quote much lower prices).
 
Just to give some context on the freelance websites...

No one would do that kind of job for 45$. They are just bots who make an automated offer on every job.
Then if they get an interview obviously they raise exponentially the asking price.

You can clearly see the difference with real people who ask for way more money. (Still not much....less than 1k to port an entire game to a new engine....)
 
*aLe said:
Jokes apart, I can't see why the place a person comes from must influence their coding skills... Or their artistic skills for example. I'm from Italy, a country of poets and painters... And I can't either compose a good poem or draw. So I can't see why people from India or China must surely be worse (or better) than the others at coding just because they're from India or China.
Click to expand...
It primarily depends on the education system: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/behind-the-bad-indian-coder/280636/
 
JosePedroFan said:
Did not copy and paste at all mate, used the same assets but had to re-write ALL of the code
Click to expand...
I'm not sure mate, i can't see people who create this " Marvelous " presentation : can write they own names. They use same assets , animation and codes . I'm sure that the Unreal Engine is so flexible that you can use codes from other scripts .
 
lazanet said:
I have seen a lot of shitty games created in UE and Unreal. Heck, Gameplay Football has an engine that is written from scratch using OpenGL and SDL.
(...)
With fully open source stack several things are guaranteed:
1) Every aspect of the game and its engine can be modded, since all of the source code is available.
2) Full source code will always be available. Even when there are drastic changes to OS's and hardware are introduced, people will be able to port the entire code-base and use it as they see fit. For example, there is no reason why this game shouldn't be portable to Raspberry PI or to a new version of Windows without some nasty bugs and workarounds (like those we need to use for PES6 ATM).
3) There is no external dependency on a big company, nor its ecosystem, which ensures that project is free to be governed by its community.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the start of the plan? Convert Gameplay Football to a fully open source stack. Did anyone already contact @bazkie yet to ask if he would support such an effort and wants to be involved and in what way?
 
lazanet said:
I have seen a lot of shitty games created in UE and Unreal. Heck, Gameplay Football has an engine that is written from scratch using OpenGL and SDL.

Choice of game engine is really only a small part of overall game development process, and all of the shortcomings of Godot engine can be removed by contribution to an open source game engine by an experienced programmer. Also, creating a game that would become a poster child of the whole engine puts it in a very good spot regarding first party support from engine developers.

This isn't only question about a monetary part, it is also a question about larger perspective. PES modding community was always heavily reliant upon reverse engineering and hacking of proprietary engines. I've been there and done that. You can also ask nesa24, juce and sxsxsx, they will all confirm how thrilled they were about staring at disassembly for dozens of hours in order to provide you all with a way to change turf length and camera zoom.

With fully open source stack several things are guaranteed:
1) Every aspect of the game and its engine can be modded, since all of the source code is available.
2) Full source code will always be available. Even when there are drastic changes to OS's and hardware are introduced, people will be able to port the entire code-base and use it as they see fit. For example, there is no reason why this game shouldn't be portable to Raspberry PI or to a new version of Windows without some nasty bugs and workarounds (like those we need to use for PES6 ATM).
3) There is no external dependency on a big company, nor its ecosystem, which ensures that project is free to be governed by its community.

When I presented this proposal I have taken into consideration what other modding communities did when they ventured into creating alternative engines for playing their favorite games. Some examples of that are:
1) GTA modding community that created excellent re3 - engine written from scratch that can run GTA3, GTAVC and GTALCS at the moment.
2) Elder Scrolls modding community that created excellent Morrowind clone called OpenMW (also written from scratch)
3) Half Life modding community with their excellent Xash3D engine (written from scratch to be compatible with original GoldSrc engine)
4) Transport Tycoon Deluxe community that released their game OpenTTD on Steam.
5) RollerCoaster Tycoon community that created OpenRCT2
Thing that all of those have in common is that they are built using 100% open source stacks.

Thing is that we as a PES community don't need to create something that is binary compatible with original assets, which enables us to reuse some existing game engine. Still, trading all of above-mentioned positive sides for the shiny finish of a commercial engine, and thus turning modding community into pure consumers is something that I'm personally not OK with.

I don't know your technical background so I'll respond based only from what I have read from your posts in this thread.

From what I've been able to discern, your plan was to buy marketplace assets, animation systems and scripts, get someone to link it all using visual programming language and then call it a day. Games that are developed this way are called Asset Flip games. Not only are those frowned upon by game critics, they are almost unilaterally badly reviewed by users. You can find tens of thousands of them that are created using UE on Google Play store.

You are right that Godot would be awful for that kind of project, since Godot lacks any sort of support for easy "asset flip" creation. Every bit of code would need to be written from the scratch or ported from Gameplay Football. This would be unfeasible for script-kiddies, but extremely doable for any group of experienced programmers. That said, porting Gameplay Football to the new engine, with same or better graphics is 100% possible and it is a straight-forward way for this community to have a working game engine with good gameplay in a reasonable time frame.

"Blueprint" is not at all a new idea. I was using similar programming paradigm in Game Maker 6, back in 2005. Eventually every developer there migrated to GML script when faced with increasing complexity of his code-base.

I wish you all of the best with your project idea, although I'm doubtful about its feasibility. I spilled my 2 cents here as my contribution to this discussion, but (as I announced in the original post) I will pursue my idea regardless of these developments.

EDIT:

It is made using Blunted2 engine which is 3D, not 2D. Original author advised maintainers to move gameplay to some other game engine, since it is already decoupled from the engine logic.
Click to expand...
You’ve raised some valid points regarding the benefits of open source. Regardless, for me, it’s about how quickly I can get a prototype running and how long my iteration cycles are. It’s about the availability of documentation, tools, and the support system behind the chosen technology. If I get stuck in an area and need assistance, there are far too many people with a wealth of experience. It saves me having to reinvent the wheel. I personally don’t want my technology to be an impediment to making my game.
 
JosePedroFan said:
Anyone who is an animator, this is your time to shine :) :

The coder who I'm speaking to doesn't want money. He doesn't care about it. He wants good high-quality animations for the project. Here is his message:

"I would need the following animations!
this is the example and that's why I say it's complex
and in particular, see below for an example

walking with the ball
walking forward
turning to 45 degrees
turning to -45 degrees
turning to 90 degrees
turning to -90 degrees
turning to 135 degrees
turning to -135 degrees
turning to 180 degrees
turning to -180 degrees
stop the ball

Tlip with the ball in place
turn to 45 degrees
turn to -45 degrees
turn to 90 degrees
turn to -90 degrees
turn to 135 degrees
turn to -135 degrees
turn to 180 degrees
turn to -180 degrees

pass the ball stationary
pass forward
to 20 degrees
to -20 degrees
to 45 degrees
to -45 degrees
to 90 degrees
to -90 degrees
to 135 degrees
to -135 degrees
to 180 degrees
to -180 degrees

pass the ball walking
pass forward
to 20 degrees
to -20 degrees
to 45 degrees
to -45 degrees
to 90 degrees
to -90 degrees
to 135 degrees
to -135 degrees
to 180 degrees
to -180 degrees

running with the ball
turning to 20 degrees
turning to -20 degrees
turning to 45 degrees
turning to -45 degrees
turning to 90 degrees
turning to -90 degrees
turning to 135 degrees
turning to -135 degrees
turning to 180 degrees
turning to -180 degrees
stop the ball at high speed

pass the ball running
to 20 degrees
to -20 degrees
to 45 degrees
to -45 degrees
to 90 degrees
to -90 degrees
to 135 degrees
to -135 degrees
to 180 degrees
to -180 degrees

after all that still with the kicks
for all angles
and as the speed is different, the animations need to be different!

kick the ball walking
to 20 degrees
to -20 degrees
to 45 degrees
to -45 degrees
to 90 degrees
to -90 degrees
to 135 degrees
to -135 degrees
to 180 degrees
to -180 degrees

kick the ball running
to 20 degrees
to -20 degrees
to 45 degrees
to -45 degrees
to 90 degrees
to -90 degrees
to 135 degrees
to -135 degrees
to 180 degrees
to -180 degrees"

If we have people from the community create all of these animations and any additional ones that are necessary for the football game, then I think that this guy would be interested in making the project without donations :)
Click to expand...
Am an animator but am in school right now hoping I could get into action early next month 😩
 
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