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English Premier League thread

The Ox has only been playing for five minutes yet he already has the awareness that Walcott and Sturridge will never have.

Add Lennon and Carrick to that pool you listed.
 
wow! u people are serious! u guys would actually drop your only top class players (like rooney, ferdinand, cole or lampard) and replace them with some promising youngsters.
good God, and then they say italians are difficult to deal with! :D
okay, what i'm about to write might aswell sound like bullshit to some of u, but still allow me to offer u the point of view of an "outsider", who ("perhaps") might be a little more objective on this subject.

although i understand that right now the hype around the likes of smalling, cleverley, sturridge, chamberlain and co. must be ridiculous (as it was around the likes of evans till 2 years ago)... being "the next best thing" does NOT mean being the best thing. the adjective "next" is there for a reason.
that means that MAYBE one day smalling will be as good (or even better) than ferdinand...... but today no one in his right mind would pick him ahead of rio.... absolutely no one. ferdinand is one of the best cbs in europe today, while smalling is just a promising 22 years old kid (like dozens of others around the world) who has less than 30 appearances as a starter in premiership. this is just crazy.

and it's not just about smalling either. i just took him as an example, but i could have talked about many other kids u mentioned....cleverley?? henderson????? so what, u have less than 1 good season and that's enough to make u national team material? chamberlain!?!?! the kid is what, 18? he's played 5 games with arsenal this season, scored 2 goals and u want him in the squad?!?! this is so messed up!! don't u realise how bad for a kid's growth it is to get this sort of attention and pressure at this stage of his carreer? he hasn't even had the time to impress u yet, and u already want him into the national team squad!
and then (once thees kids grow up) u even complain about theese guys huge egos? wow that's hilarious! :CONF:

i often hear u guys talking about the ridiculous expectations on english players and the pressure.... i also often hear u talking about the huge egos and prima donna characters many english players seem to have.
have u ever wondered how this happened? don't u think that throwing theese promising youngsters to battle against the "big guys" is the quickest way to destroy theese kids' confidence? don't u think it might be a little too much pressure for theese kids to hand them over the keys of the national team at this stage of their carreer? i mean come on, i'm seeing lineups with a cleverley-whilshere midfield duo here! how do u think those poor kids would handle themselves against busquest and xavi (or fabregas)? or against de rossi and pirlo!!! or vs khedira and shweinsteiger. do u really believe that's the smart play here?

and about the so called "old guard" filled with primadonnas huge egos, has it ever occurred to u guys that u were the ones who screwed them up in the first place? don't u realise what sort of message u're sending to theese kids with this attitude.
u see, when smalling reads the papers and notices that the media are claiming to be moronic not to put smalling in england's starting 11... or when he realises that many fans would line him up him rather than an established world class players like ferdinand....... how do u think a 22 years old kid would react???!! i mean u're basically telling him u think he's better than ferdinand..... don't u realise that u are the ones responsible for english players' crazy egos. and that's how it all starts.... by feeding their egos way too much, when they still have everything to prove..... buy turning them into stars, when they're still too young to realise u're a bunch of hype-bitches who will change your mind about him as soon as he hits a slump (wich is exactly what u did with evans and many other players before him).

u litterally chew theese guys and then spit them out once u've destroyed their confidence (by putting too much pressure on them) or once u fed their egos so much they actually think they're the best players out there. or at least this is how it looks from the outside.

making it into the national team is supposed to be the ultimate accomplishment for a football player. u might occasionally reward some particularly talented youngster with a callup if he really is something special (like u did with rooney, who, unlike the kids u're mentioning, really was something special since early in his carreer), but u don't line up a team of kids coming straight out of your u21 selection, because that would be sending them to a slaughterhouse.

and finally one last note: theese kids u're mentioning... they're really not so special as u might think there are... they're just as talented and promising as dozens of other kids all over the planet (except wilshere). don't get me wrong i'm very impressed with welbeck and walker and sturridge, but there are other 22 years old kids in spain and germany and italy and france who are just as talented and promising.
and on the other side rooney, ferdinand, lampard, gerrard, cole... they're not washed up yet. sure they've disappointed u in the past... sure the're not young so they're not surrounded by any hype..... but they still remain your most talented players and your best shot at getting a win against any other european top team.
or at least that's how i see it.:))
 
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Good post Ben, especially about the overhyping of players.
Overhyping seems to be a national sports in England: it happens with football players, clubs but also in the music world. Magazines like NME find a newe hype every single issue. The next big thing of last month is an has-been this month.

This also happens with players.
Walcott got absolutely overhyped and is now seen as a failure, where he simply is one of the best English players.
The truth is that English players are not as good as English people think they are. Rooney is world class if is heart is in it. Cole is among the best lef backs in the world (although it's hard for me to concede that, he must be the major asshole among all the other assholes). And basically that's it. Lampard used to be world class, but suffered because of the eternally discussion about him and Gerrard (now people are discussing wether Gerrad can play together with Adam and/or Henderson with Liverpool, is there a player with whom Gerrard can play together?). Lampard was never the fastest player but now he is simply slow and is not a regular starter with Chelsea: i would leave him out.

I would also leave out Terry and Ferdinand, because they both show that they are clearly past their prime and on top of that there is "that" situation which involves both players (Rio being the brother of Anton).

So, yes i agree with you Ben, but i also would build a new England team with the next WC as an aim...build a new squad, give those young players credit (including those from other clubs and even those from rival clubs) and certainly don't overhype them when they are doing well.

And perhaps the most important thing of all for English football: if you care about the English national team and English players, STOP BUYING THE TABLOIDS!!!!!!
 
I think Lo Zio you are falling into the trap (Like so many) of thinking that footballers are children or are stupid. They are adults and the way they think and deal with situations is upto them.

You say what sort of message does playing Smalling for Ferdinand say? well I am sure the manager actually speaks to the players and tells them why and what is expected of them. He doesn't just pick them and not speak to them? he will explain why they are in the team ahead of the Ferdinands, Terry's etc. If the players aren't moronic (and you have to assume they aren't) then they can work out why they are there and not think they are Jesus.

If the manager explains why he has chosen players (Because he wants to start a new dawn for the English Football team) then I don't see why players egos should inflate so much, if they are dealt with in the proper way by the people around them.

People talk about 18 - 22 year old footballers like they are 10 year olds. When I was 18 I was very much aware of things and intelligent enough to think for myself and realise there are many reasons for situations I am in and not just think so one dimensionally. If a girl talks to me, it doesn't mean she loves me, it is because she wants to talk to somebody (She might love me, you never know :PP ). By your estimation, if a girl talks to a young footballer, then they automatically think they are in love with them and there is no other reason for it. They don't have the ability to think of other reasons why events are happening, they are footballers, not learning Disabled.

The older players in our team were ideolised for so long, they were the golden generation, we had top quality in most positions....but they never performed in the competitions. They could not come together as a team. They were given alot of chances to shine and it never happened.

So I think it is perfectly acceptable to bring in the new, let them grow together as a team for a couple of years, get experience in a big competition together etc The bad results, will be a good learning experience for them.

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet with a team and say they just aren't good enough and our older players have proved time and again as a team it just doesn't work.

I also think that most people know that some of the new crop of players aren't the best in the world? I don't know why you said the last bit? you think that we don't realise that other countries have amazing young talent? you think that we are that ignorant?

We are talking about our young players coming through and get excited, because it is nice seeing new players coming through and playing well. I am not getting excited about an 18 year old Italian or Spanish player because I don't support them?

My opinion, I would love to see the old guard removed and a fresh new team with the new manager focused on the next World Cup and actually declare that the team will do their very best in the Euros, but emphasise it is a long term plan to build a new stronger team, to hopefully calm supporters and the press down.

I think Cole and Rooney should stay, but the others I couldn't really care about if they left the England set up. Maybe keep a Gerrard or Lampard in the sqaud for a bit of experience aswell? (maybe Ferdinand, but only as backup and a presence in the dressing room, for others to gain experience from)

I agree our best shot at getting further in the Euros is probably to keep most of the old players, but we aren't going to win it and I would rather plan for the future. :))
 
Bobby said:
I think Lo Zio you are falling into the trap (Like so many) of thinking that footballers are children or are stupid. They are adults and the way they think and deal with situations is upto them.....
People talk about 18 - 22 year old footballers like they are 10 year olds. When I was 18 I was very much aware of things and intelligent enough to think for myself and realise there are many reasons for situations I am in and not just think so one dimensionally. If a girl talks to me, it doesn't mean she loves me, it is because she wants to talk to somebody (She might love me, you never know ). By your estimation, if a girl talks to a young footballer, then they automatically think they are in love with them and there is no other reason for it. They don't have the ability to think of other reasons why events are happening, they are footballers, not learning Disabled.
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yes bobby, i actually believe teenagers and youngsters in their early 20s are stupid and immature..... they're supposed to be. that's their time to be stupid and immature by definition. and i also believe that a 22 years old football player is also usually a lot less mature than a "normal" 22 years old guy, because a young football player doesn't usually get to face those same challenges a normal 22 years old guy does.
when i was 20 i became a pr for some clubs (not football clubs). i suddenly found myself with more money i could spend and that turned me into a complete idiot. and mind u, we're not talking about millions.... and i also didn't have all the major medias praising me as if i was a young god.... theese sort of things tend to get in your head when you're young. :))
and it doesn't matter if your coaches, your parents and friends try to bring u back to reality.... they just can't match the impact of the headlines on newspapers that millions of people read every day.

of course that doesn't apply to every young player, there are several exceptions, but still that's what we're talking about: exceptions. that's why we tend to be so impressed when we hear and see a young football player who is actually grounded and balanced and composed and mature. i often see 26 years old football players acting and talking as if they were 16.

i just think it's not healthy to throw theese young promising kids in the same arena where the best players in the world perform.... with all the pressure that comes from being part of the english national team.
u're suppposed to ease them into the squad... put 1, 2, maybe 3 youngsters in the squad and let them get acclimatized with that new environment.
but swapping the entire team with young guns, lining up a squad with 8, 7 under 23 kids with no international experience yet...... that's not letting them grow... that's burning them. at least imo.
bobby said:
I also think that most people know that some of the new crop of players aren't the best in the world? I don't know why you said the last bit? you think that we don't realise that other countries have amazing young talent? you think that we are that ignorant?
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i certainly don't think u're that naive (i wouldn't use the word "ignorant" anyway) bobby..... but u gotta admit, u don't really represent "the average football fan" (that is a compliment btw ;)) ).
 
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tobi said:
The Ox has only been playing for five minutes yet he already has the awareness that Walcott and Sturridge will never have.

Add Lennon and Carrick to that pool you listed.
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i think about Oxlade-Chamberlain as i think about Cleverley or McEacharan or others as future possible national playes or even starting lineup...

i forgot about Carrick and Bent to be honest.. both should be there, but, my point was that England today has more potential than ever in terms of youth vs. quality, at least as far i remember...

for some spot there is 3 very good players and still some of them not even 20...

i didn´t even mentioned Catermole or Wickham for example..

i think England needs a good coach but for long term..someone that could build a team for world cup 2014, i agree to get rid of the old players that represent without any major trophy so far and go the Germany way implying youth with players who are backbone of their clubs...Rooney still is england´s best player atm in attack area, there he has no competition..
 
I think that teams that try to follow a mentality that works for another team often fail. Teams that try to do the Barcelona can't keep it up or replicate it, so I think trying the Germany route is going to bring further disappointment to England.

When I think of English players, I tend to associate them with confidence, stamina, passing and strength etc, so I think the best thing to do is to focus on building a squad around these strengths. The reason I associate these characteristics is by watching English teams in the CL over the last 4 years. The thing that stands out most from EPL teams is their hunger to win games (it seems to have faded in the last 2 years). Only in England have I ever seen this kind of hunger to win games at all costs. You don't need explosive young players to do this, and you don't need old guys to do this, it's all about chemistry. Italy proved this, and so did Spain - Germany hasn't won anything yet, and also, what options do they have from the 27 yo+ crop that England has? "Grooming" young players for a foundation, to me, is mostly bollocks. Every winning national team is based on the now and present (spanning a 2-3 year period). National team football isn't a club, it's a team that's put together every 2 years to win the one tournament.

The so-called old guard are shot down now, but if one of them was on great form right now, you'd be including him in your team. Ferdinand and Gerrard have had injuries recently, so it's easy to put them out, but what if they were playing like Giggs and were vital to their teams?

The thing with Capello was that he brought discipline to the players, I'm totally in favour of this approach because it means the players know that to play for your country, you have to act a certain way. Prandelli banned Balotelli and De Rossi from Italy a year ago for poor discipline, and De Rossi regretted it, he had to earn our manager's trust back.

Anyway, I forgot what the point of this point was.
 
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lo zio said:
yes bobby, i actually believe teenagers and youngsters in their early 20s are stupid and immature..... they're supposed to be. that's their time to be stupid and immature by definition. and i also believe that a 22 years old football player is also usually a lot less mature than a "normal" 22 years old guy, because a young football player doesn't usually get to face those same challenges a normal 22 years old guy does.
when i was 20 i became a pr for some clubs (not football clubs). i suddenly found myself with more money i could spend and that turned me into a complete idiot. and mind u, we're not talking about millions.... and i also didn't have all the major medias praising me as if i was a young god.... theese sort of things tend to get in your head when you're young. :))
and it doesn't matter if your coaches, your parents and friends try to bring u back to reality.... they just can't match the impact of the headlines on newspapers that millions of people read every day.

of course that doesn't apply to every young player, there are several exceptions, but still that's what we're talking about: exceptions. that's why we tend to be so impressed when we hear and see a young football player who is actually grounded and balanced and composed and mature. i often see 26 years old football players acting and talking as if they were 16.

i just think it's not healthy to throw theese young promising kids in the same arena where the best players in the world perform.... with all the pressure that comes from being part of the english national team.
u're suppposed to ease them into the squad... put 1, 2, maybe 3 youngsters in the squad and let them get acclimatized with that new environment.
but swapping the entire team with young guns, lining up a squad with 8, 7 under 23 kids with no international experience yet...... that's not letting them grow... that's burning them. at least imo.

i certainly don't think u're that naive (i wouldn't use the word "ignorant" anyway) bobby..... but u gotta admit, u don't really represent "the average football fan" (that is a compliment btw ;)) ).
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I think there are hundreds of more players that don't let their egos get the better of them. It is just the ones that do are reported about more. Like you rarely hear good news reported, only bad.

I also think that alot of footballers have been working their arses off to be a professional footballer and alot think they have got so far they want to keep improving and be successful. Alot of them have been playing football since they were extremely young and have seen friends fail along the way and they realise how lucky they are.

I don't think many of our recent England players were that egotistical? or arrogant? Rooney and Terry (although he was just a dick) are the only two really? (that it becomes a negative thing) ooh and maybe Cole.

It could have an adverse effect on some players, but I think it will make them stronger. If in the Euros the hype train can be stopped and the manager releases a statement to say it is for the long term etc. Then I think the young players will be hungry to make a difference and if we lose it won't be as much of a dissapointment. One thing is for sure we will have players on the pitch giving everything.

It is dratic swapping the whole team, so leaving some old heads is good, but with the idea of playing the youngsters as much as possible would be great. So that the older ones aren't shoe ins for their posisitions, more back up if it isn't going well.
 
Totally agree with Ben on this subject. The thing is you don't know the importance of the "old" players until your team plays a big game on a big stage. The games that need personality. Maybe you missed that Bobby since you are an Arsenal fan. :P

Look at Scholes today. He came back from retirement and totally controlled the game and rhythm against Liverpool today. Tell me any player under 24 that can do the same thing?

And the idea of dropping Rooney got floated around. Now that is insane. Who will replace him? Welbeck still has a long way to go.
 
Yeah it's nonsense to even suggest to drop Rooney, he's what 25 and one of the best in the world. I'd even keep Cole, Ferdinand and Gerrard.

----------Hart---------
Richards--Smalling-Ferdinand--Cole
--------Wilshire-Parker(C)-----
-The OX-----Rooney-----Gerrard-
----------Welbeck------------

I genuinely would play that side, RB is a difficult one, Richards is having a good season and is more experienced than Walker so I gave him the edge, Smalling (IMO) is extremely talented and is simply better than Cahill or other options and he's ahead of Jones in his development IMO. Chamberlain I do think is a bit of a special talent, again its probably premature but when he's simply put better than the other options, I could see it now Walcott and Young frustrating with people screaming for the OX to be brought on.

I think the side their is pretty balanced and IMO ive not picked on youth but only talent I think thats the best side probably.
 
If they continue as they have so far, I'd love to see Carrick and Scholes go into the Euros together. Have a great understanding. Sit them in a 3 with Parker and good to go :)

But the English public hate Carrick for some reason, so that won't happen. I'd love Scholsey to do a swansong tournament, but doubt he will. He's been the best English midfielder in the prem since he came back. How depressing is that?
 
Zeem said:
Totally agree with Ben on this subject. The thing is you don't know the importance of the "old" players until your team plays a big game on a big stage. The games that need personality. Maybe you missed that Bobby since you are an Arsenal fan. :P

Look at Scholes today. He came back from retirement and totally controlled the game and rhythm against Liverpool today. Tell me any player under 24 that can do the same thing?

And the idea of dropping Rooney got floated around. Now that is insane. Who will replace him? Welbeck still has a long way to go.
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I think over the years our players have had alot of personality so :PP back at you :))

I'm not doubting that the older players are better, but none of them have really performed for England consistently.

I just want to see a tight team that can be a team for many years to come and hopefully be decent. I think the way to do this would be to overhall the team ready for the World Cup.

I've already stated that some of the older players should stay in the squad, but where we can, we should play the youngsters more often than not.
 
beachryan said:
If they continue as they have so far, I'd love to see Carrick and Scholes go into the Euros together. Have a great understanding. Sit them in a 3 with Parker and good to go :)

But the English public hate Carrick for some reason, so that won't happen. I'd love Scholsey to do a swansong tournament, but doubt he will. He's been the best English midfielder in the prem since he came back. How depressing is that?
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As said SAF would say "Their's absolutely no question about that!" If Scholes and Carrick along with Parker was a viable choice then it'd be a no brainer but unfortunetly it's not.
 
bobby said:
I'm not doubting that the older players are better, but none of them have really performed for England consistently.

I just want to see a tight team that can be a team for many years to come and hopefully be decent. I think the way to do this would be to overhall the team ready for the World Cup.

I've already stated that some of the older players should stay in the squad, but where we can, we should play the youngsters more often than not.
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that's absolutely a reasonable point of view and i don't think anyone would disagree with that. u wanna rejuvinate the team, and bring some fresh blood, young hunger and ambition into the squad, so u mix up the senators with some youngsters. that's absolutely natural. what raised my eyebrows was reading about an entire under 23 lineup, or reading people qualifying the likes of henderson and chamberlain as national team material already.
for instance i think there's nothing wrong with younggun's lineup (except for chamberlain of course :P ).... i'm not trying to say wheter that's a good team or not, but that's definitely not a ridiculous lineup... a professional coach might actually field such a team.

most importantly, i didn't mean my post to be a rant or an insult to english fans. sure those people who follow closely (and mostly) the EPL (english or not), tend to overrate epl players, english players and also seem to have some sort of an obsession with youngsters (i assume it is because young players are "cool" or something like that)......but that's hardly an insult to u guys. i mean italian fans don't overrate their league or players, nor they buy into the hype of young talents... but we sure have our own issues, as i'm sure u know. :)) yours isn't really much of a flaw...i'd say it's more of a quirk.

when i read bobby implying i might have implicitly called u "ignorants", i realised i might have come across harsher than i meant. i didn't mean to insult u guys (especially those who actually partecipated to this conversation... jamezinho, tobi, younggun, beachryan, bobby... u guys are among the ones i respect the most in this forum).
the harshest word i used was "hype-bithces"... wich like i said i consider to be more of a quirk than a real flaw. and let's be honest guys, u actually are hype-bithces :P . there are seriously dozens of examples i could mention....lennon, walcott, agbonlahor, pennant, bale, bentley.... they were all hyped up to "world class prodigy" status at the beginning of their carreers... just a few impressive performances were enough for u to label them the "next best thing" and put huge pressure on them (in a moment of a player's carreer when the last thing needed is additional pressure)..... only after 2, 3 seasons of professional football, once the hype around them settled down, u were actually able to see them for what they are (some are decent players, some are good players, some are very good players, but none is actually a world class player). now u're doing the same thing with the likes of chamberlain, henderson, wickam, cleverley, carrol (although carrol is already moving to the second stage of the process, wich immediately follows the exagerated hype: the unappropriately exagerated criticism and bashing :P ..... wich is exactly what u did with evans before).

and on the other side, u seem to be unbelievably indifferent to some other players (i guess they're just not young and cool enough).... i mean it took an entire page of conversation for someone to mention carrick?!?! :? how about that! over the last 2 pages most of u have mentioned the likes of henderson and cleverley for the midfield position....and only now beachryan is coming out with a "hey, now that i think about it, there's also that carrick guy who's not that bad"...another example is parker, who is getting some recognition only this season for the first time (wich makes me wonder if any of u has ever watched west ham in the past 3 years). bent is another "misteriously underestimated" english player... we're not talking about "potential" or "talent" (wich are the most meaningless words in football) with theese players.... we're talking about actual quality here.

i could go on, but i guess that's enough to prove my point. and again, don't take this as a rant or an offensive post. i'm just remarking what i consider to be a unusual and unhealthy approach to football. u tend to (massively) overrate your league and the players (english or not) who play in it..... u also used to (massively) overrate your national team (till about 8 years ago) but the recent failures and disappointments changed your approach and now, if anything, you're way too harsh towards your national team (wich is exactly the same attitude u have towards your "overhyped youngsters" once they turn out to be not that great afterall).

and i also remarked the fact that this huge hype generate expectations your young players usually can't live up to (or, in some other cases, feeds their egos way too much), wich means that probably, before criticizing your players for their exagerate egos or lack of confidence, u should ask yourself if you played a role in that... and maybe think about changing your approach to young players.

theese were my 2 main points, and like i said, i was not insulting you or implying you're "ignorants"... i'm just inviting u to think about that and ask yourselves if there's any truth in what i wrote. :))
 
lo zio said:
that's absolutely a reasonable point of view and i don't think anyone would disagree with that. u wanna rejuvinate the team, and bring some fresh blood, young hunger and ambition into the squad, so u mix up the senators with some youngsters. that's absolutely natural. what raised my eyebrows was reading about an entire under 23 lineup, or reading people qualifying the likes of henderson and chamberlain as national team material already.
for instance i think there's nothing wrong with younggun's lineup (except for chamberlain of course :P ).... i'm not trying to say wheter that's a good team or not, but that's definitely not a ridiculous lineup... a professional coach might actually field such a team.

most importantly, i didn't mean my post to be a rant or an insult to english fans. sure those people who follow closely (and mostly) the EPL (english or not), tend to overrate epl players, english players and also seem to have some sort of an obsession with youngsters (i assume it is because young players are "cool" or something like that)......but that's hardly an insult to u guys. i mean italian fans don't overrate their league or players, nor they buy into the hype of young talents... but we sure have our own issues, as i'm sure u know. :)) yours isn't really much of a flaw...i'd say it's more of a quirk.

when i read bobby implying i might have implicitly called u "ignorants", i realised i might have come across harsher than i meant. i didn't mean to insult u guys (especially those who actually partecipated to this conversation... jamezinho, tobi, younggun, beachryan, bobby... u guys are among the ones i respect the most in this forum).
the harshest word i used was "hype-bithces"... wich like i said i consider to be more of a quirk than a real flaw. and let's be honest guys, u actually are hype-bithces :P . there are seriously dozens of examples i could mention....lennon, walcott, agbonlahor, pennant, bale, bentley.... they were all hyped up to "world class prodigy" status at the beginning of their carreers... just a few impressive performances were enough for u to label them the "next best thing" and put huge pressure on them (in a moment of a player's carreer when the last thing needed is additional pressure)..... only after 2, 3 seasons of professional football, once the hype around them settled down, u were actually able to see them for what they are (some are decent players, some are good players, some are very good players, but none is actually a world class player). now u're doing the same thing with the likes of chamberlain, henderson, wickam, cleverley, carrol (although carrol is already moving to the second stage of the process, wich immediately follows the exagerated hype: the unappropriately exagerated criticism and bashing :P ..... wich is exactly what u did with evans before).

and on the other side, u seem to be unbelievably indifferent to some other players (i guess they're just not young and cool enough).... i mean it took an entire page of conversation for someone to mention carrick?!?! :? how about that! over the last 2 pages most of u have mentioned the likes of henderson and cleverley for the midfield position....and only now beachryan is coming out with a "hey, now that i think about it, there's also that carrick guy who's not that bad"...another example is parker, who is getting some recognition only this season for the first time (wich makes me wonder if any of u has ever watched west ham in the past 3 years). bent is another "misteriously underestimated" english player... we're not talking about "potential" or "talent" (wich are the most meaningless words in football) with theese players.... we're talking about actual quality here.

i could go on, but i guess that's enough to prove my point. and again, don't take this as a rant or an offensive post. i'm just remarking what i consider to be a unusual and unhealthy approach to football. u tend to (massively) overrate your league and the players (english or not) who play in it..... u also used to (massively) overrate your national team (till about 8 years ago) but the recent failures and disappointments changed your approach and now, if anything, you're way too harsh towards your national team (wich is exactly the same attitude u have towards your "overhyped youngsters" once they turn out to be not that great afterall).

and i also remarked the fact that this huge hype generate expectations your young players usually can't live up to (or, in some other cases, feeds their egos way too much), wich means that probably, before criticizing your players for their exagerate egos or lack of confidence, u should ask yourself if you played a role in that... and maybe think about changing your approach to young players.

theese were my 2 main points, and like i said, i was not insulting you or implying you're "ignorants"... i'm just inviting u to think about that and ask yourselves if there's any truth in what i wrote. :))
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I did find your post a bit condescending, but I have been reading and respecting your posts for so long, that I just wanted to respond and counter what you said. You bring up a good point and create discussion which is always healthy....especially for a forum :))

I still think you generalise the English supporters and put us all into the same group. Worst of all I think you group the supporters with the media and although alot of people are influenced by the media and what they say, I would like to think that most of us rational people/supporters think about things and aren't so hasty in our judgements.

But I also understand that people looking in from the outside can see our media and some supporters reacting and think the way you do.

The Carrick thing, we were talking about young players coming in and getting rid of the old players. Since he neither falls under the category of young player to bring in or one of the old players we want to get rid of, he was not mentioned. A couple of people put up teams they would like to see, but that doesn't mean we would all like to see those teams and those posts don't represent all of us, it is one persons opinion.

Also if people are indifferent to Carrick it is because he like so many other players that play for England do not perform consistantly and although he is doing very well for his club team, doesn't mean he will be as good for the England team.

Also Parker people were talking about him before he went to Tottenham and he was called up for the England team. It's just that now he is in a good team fighting for the premiership and one of their best players. He could have stood out in the West Ham team because the other players around him were mediocre. At Tottenham he is invaluable playng with the likes of Modric, Van Der Vaart, Bale, Adebayor etc So it has heightened what people think about Parker. Most people thought he was a really good player before, he has now gone up as being a great player.

I also contest your view that all of the players like Pennant, Walcott etc were hyped up to be world beaters etc, they were hyped up don't get me wrong, but I think you are exagerating how much they were hyped up :))

But I do agree that some parts of the press and usually some groups of supporters of the clubs these young players play for, do hype the players to a negative degree.....but I do think it is the minority that are more heard and shout the loudest.

Again there isn't much news in 'Walcott will be a decent player one day' or will the papers print 'Walcott the next Thierry Henry!' it will always be the latter and is why the press abuses it's power.

I also would like to apologise if my post back to you was defensive and attacking etc if you ever feel that way about my posts it is not supposed to come across like that.

Having different opinions and discussing them clearly and calmly is what it should be about :DD
 
well of course my post was a bit of a generalization.... u can't talk about a 10 people group without making generalizations, nevermind millions, yet u can still clearely extract some sort of general principles from generalizations.
as a matter of fact italians have some serious issues with authority (in any form). we feel less obliged to follow the rules (as if they were just suggestions) and this bad habit is the reason of the high corruption rate in politics and also the reasaon of most of our bad habits inside (or outside) the stadia.
luckily most of the fans have a good beahaviour inside the stadia, but that's just because they want to behave..... they never feel like they MUST behave (and this is a serious issue).
of course that is a generalization. i have no problems respecting the authority and millions of italians are like me...... but when u look at the big picture, u can actually see there's a cultural difference between italian fans and, say, english fans.

the very same way, i'm obviously aware u don't recognize yourself in that stereotype i painted.... because honestly u don't fall into that category of "epl fan". and i'm also well aware that many other epl fan are just like u (we have lots of examples of that in this very forum).
but i honestly resent the idea that u represent "the average epl fan" bobby. in my opinion u, like many others represent the exception.

and i also resent the (very common) idea that confusing the english media with the english public is wrong. i just can't agree with that.
very often i see many of u guys expressing your distance from english media, and i realize u really belive that the british media don't usually represent the public's opinion.... but this is just not possible.
the only countries where the media can express strongly different opinion from the mass are those countries lead by autocratic governments. but everywhere else, the media will always give the people what they want. this is really an indisputable truth that any history professor will confirm to u.
and if u need a more "empirical" proof, just consider this. that crap sells like crazy. some of your tabloids and newspapers sell much more than the most respected italian newspaper (and mind u, italians read a lot!).
this is really an undenyable fact. i would never read martin samuel (just to make an example), nor buy any of that crap u can find in the newstands all over england...... and i'm sure neither do u.... but other people do.... millions really.

nobody spends his time and money on something he considers "crap". if english newspapers were actually considered "crap" by the majority of english people, then those very same newspapers would be forced to change their contents and adjust to the mass desires. i challenge any of u to defy such an undebeatable syllogism.

bottom line, i know u think i didn't picture the true majority of epl fans with my post...... and i perfectly understand why... since i think u don't fall into that majority.
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as for your other points, i mantain that players like parker and carrick (those are just 2 examples) are ("were" in parker's case) often overlooked, and not just when talking about the national team..... i've noticed that several very good players are often underestimated by their own club-fans in england, just because there's not much hype surrounding them. but obviously that's just my opinion and i might well be wrong on that. :))

and yeah, i'm aware i can be irritatingly condescending. it's not intentional and i'm actually trying to work on that (with poor results i might add :P )

edit: your post was absolutely not defensive or insulting bobby... at all. u have absolutely nothing to apologise for. if anything, u helped me realise my post sounded harsher than i meant i to be :BEER:
 
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lo zio said:
well of course my post was a bit of a generalization.... u can't talk about a 10 people group without making generalizations, nevermind millions, yet u can still clearely extract some sort of general principles from generalizations.
as a matter of fact italians have some serious issues with authority (in any form). we feel less obliged to follow the rules (as if they were just suggestions) and this bad habit is the reason of the high corruption rate in politics and also the reasaon of most of our bad habits inside (or outside) the stadia.
luckily most of the fans have a good beahaviour inside the stadia, but that's just because they want to behave..... they never feel like they MUST behave (and this is a serious issue).
of course that is a generalization. i have no problems respecting the authority and millions of italians are like me...... but when u look at the big picture, u can actually see there's a cultural difference between italian fans and, say, english fans.

the very same way, i'm obviously aware u don't recognize yourself in that stereotype i painted.... because honestly u don't fall into that category of "epl fan". and i'm also well aware that many other epl fan are just like u (we have lots of examples of that in this very forum).
but i honestly resent the idea that u represent "the average epl fan" bobby. in my opinion u, like many others represent the exception.

and i also resent the (very common) idea that confusing the english media with the english public is wrong. i just can't agree with that.
very often i see many of u guys expressing your distance from english media, and i realize u really belive that the british media don't usually represent the public's opinion.... but this is just not possible.
the only countries where the media can express strongly different opinion from the mass are those countries lead by autocratic governments. but everywhere else, the media will always give the people what they want. this is really an indisputable truth that any history professor will confirm to u.
and if u need a more "empirical" proof, just consider this. that crap sells like crazy. some of your tabloids and newspapers sell much more than the most respected italian newspaper (and mind u, italians read a lot!).
this is really an undenyable fact. i would never read martin samuel (just to make an example), nor buy any of that crap u can find in the newstands all over england...... and i'm sure neither do u.... but other people do.... millions really.

nobody spends his time and money on something he considers "crap". if english newspapers were actually considered "crap" by the majority of english people, then those very same newspapers would be forced to change their contents and adjust to the mass desires. i challenge any of u to defy such an undebeatable syllogism.

bottom line, i know u think i didn't picture the true majority of epl fans with my post...... and i perfectly understand why... since i think u don't fall into that majority.
----------------------------------------------------------------

as for your other points, i mantain that players like parker and carrick (those are just 2 examples) are ("were" in parker's case) often overlooked, and not just when talking about the national team..... i've noticed that several very good players are often underestimated by their own club-fans in england, just because there's not much hype surrounding them. but obviously that's just my opinion and i might well be wrong on that. :))

and yeah, i'm aware i can be irritatingly condescending. it's not intentional and i'm actually trying to work on that (with poor results i might add :P )

edit: your post was absolutely not defensive or insulting bobby... at all. u have absolutely nothing to apologise for. if anything, u helped me realise my post sounded harsher than i ment i to be :BEER:
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The papers give people what they want yes, just like a movie gives the viewer what they want or a novelist gives the reader what they want. But just because a Director/Novelist writes in a certain way or on a certain subject doesn't mean that the people reading it agree with what they are writing. But the story is entertaining for them.

Most people I know do buy the tabloids suprisingly, but they take what they say with a pinch of salt. The tabloids are easily accessible, cheap and can give you general information really quickly. Match reports are more direct and give you the information you need to read on a lunch break etc.

The Guardian and papers of a similar nature (Non tabloids) are more thoughtful and often more objective and what they say is more articularly put, but often people can't be bothered to read them, or don't put the effort into them.

A prime example was a guy I worked with last year (A Spurs supporter :PP ) he was very knowledgeable about football and a very intelligent guy, but he brought the Sun newspaper every day. For him it was a quick thing he could read on his lunch break and most of the stories he would tell me from it he had a little wry smile and a raised eyebrow. He prefered the match feedback from those papers as they were short and to the point and he could also get general news from it aswell.

I too used to buy the Daily Mirror which I think is a few steps up from the sun, but still a tabloid. But I liked the way a few of the columnists wrote about the games and the rest I would make my own mind up about.

I now get most of my info by trawling through websites and reading articles and different opinions about situations and games, I rarely get a newspaper (well I definately don't now, because I live in Israel :)) )

I don't think I am that much of an exception and if I am the minority it is a very slight balance between the majority and the minority.

Also the internet is great for seeing what fans think, read articles from certain authors and you will see a big comments list underneath if people think they are talking crap....but they still read the columns.

So I really think you shouldn't put our media with what people actually think here, there are a wide variety of opinions and you would be suprised I think on how many fans actually think along the same lines as me.

The media do influence the way people think definately, politically it happens everyday (Especially now living in Israel, I can see how biased news organistions are and how it sways the way people think...but that is a whole different matter entirely :DD ) so of course it happens in the sports media aswell and you get the sheep that can't look at things objectively and ride the hype train, but you will always get these people.
 
that's a very good point indeed. i'm not (entirely) persuaded, to be honest, but your logic makes perfect sense.
who knows, perhaps my judgement was a bit hasty afterall :))
 
I do kind of agree with Ben in regards to 90% of "English" supporters are as Ben mentionend but I think the reason most of us come here is so we can actually have real conversations instead of what the average "EPL" fan will say which you can't even begin to debate when the conversation's can start with the most ridiculous of points (Rooney is rubbish, Gerrard and Lampard are as good as Xavi and Iniesta) so the ones that often end up here are not the "average" fan which I agree with Ben DO simply agree with the simplistic points the tabloids make.
 
beachryan said:
The majority of English fans read the Sun and want a man that has won 1 trophy in 25 years of management.
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YoungGun_UK said:
I do kind of agree with Ben in regards to 90% of "English" supporters are as Ben mentionend but I think the reason most of us come here is so we can actually have real conversations instead of what the average "EPL" fan will say which you can't even begin to debate when the conversation's can start with the most ridiculous of points (Rooney is rubbish, Gerrard and Lampard are as good as Xavi and Iniesta) so the ones that often end up here are not the "average" fan which I agree with Ben DO simply agree with the simplistic points the tabloids make.
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Sssh you two, I nearly won that argument :PP
 
You finally return to your club, you say you want to help your club win the title and then you say that?!

Tell Kia to piss off and man up.
 
tobi said:
You finally return to your club, you say you want to help your club win the title and then you say that?!

Tell Kia to piss off and man up.
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This saga with Tevez make City look like they own football, they do what they want to who they want because they have the cash too. IF he is that much of a pain, let him join Milan.. dont demand xx million as you dont need it, all you are doing is keeping a hostile player at the club because financially you can do so.

Name one other club that can afford to waste and ruin a 20-30m player and let them rot at home? Name one other club that wouldnt accept an offer of say 20m for said player to get him off the books and the story out of hte papers?

City want this as they can play the victum, when infact they are the bully boys of the game now.
 
out of curiosity, who would u guys pick for the english job? if u could pick an english coach to lead the national team, what would be your first choice and why? i'm quite curious about this.

personally i kinda like the idea of having a coach of the same nationality of the team... coaches can make a big impact in international football, so having a foreign coach is kinda like having a foreign player in the team.
but i haven't watched enough premiership lately and i just can't think of a name fit for the job. so who's your favourite pick? :))
 
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