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Manchester United Thread

BobbyBox said:
Dodging taxes, taking drugs and having sex with underage girls is greatly more harmful to society than what Giggs has done. I don't condone it and it is very bad, but I look down more upon a racing driver (for example) that was born in the uk, gets all of the benefits of living in the uk, then when they make millions of pounds pretend they live in an area of the world where they get minimum tax or none at all.....and give nothing back to the country they have grown up in. Yet, they will still get knighthoods if they win a few championships etc.

If you look into allot of top people in their profession, I'm sure you will find something morally wrong that they have done to some degree or another.

anyway, I don't like Man United or Giggs (especially after that FA cup final goal he scored against us :PP) but just because his dirty laundry was made public, doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be recognised for his work for Man United imo.
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The benefit of living in the Uk isn't to become a race driver. If it was, everyone born here would become race drivers. He will have more than paid what he personally took.
Whilst drugs are a problem (mostly because they've been made illegal), nothing you mention comes close to the widespread negative impact of marriage breakups involving kids.

Everyone does immoral things. Everyone makes mistakes. But this isn't a case of Giggs having a one night stand with his brother's wife, it's not even a phase, it's a decade! It really shows his true character. He's a cunt.
 
Godotelli said:
The benefit of living in the Uk isn't to become a race driver. If it was, everyone born here would become race drivers. He will have more than paid what he personally took.
Whilst drugs are a problem (mostly because they've been made illegal), nothing you mention comes close to the widespread negative impact of marriage breakups involving kids.

Everyone does immoral things. Everyone makes mistakes. But this isn't a case of Giggs having a one night stand with his brother's wife, it's not even a phase, it's a decade! It really shows his true character. He's a cunt.
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I don't understand your first sentence? did I say the benefit of living in the uk was to become a racing driver? :LOL:

anyway, my point is that people are doing much more harm to society as a whole and get plaudits for many reasons. Much worse than sleeping with his own brothers wife.

I bet a large proportion of people that have statues in their honour have made some questionable moral decisions/actions to get there. What Giggs did was between him and his family. We don't know the full circumstances there at all (I don't, I don't know how much info came out about it?) his brother could be a dick and not a very nice person, who was abusing his wife and Giggs took care of her etc etc He could have just been a cunt and did what he did, but there are reasons that we don't know.

People who do stuff more morally wrong to society as a whole make me more angry.

It's definitely arguable what causes more trouble in society, a broken home, drugs, tax evasion leading to the unequal distribution of wealth. Some are consequences of the other and vice versa.

its a silly argument really, just dismissing, sex with underage girls, tax evasion etc and making Giggs out to be much worse than people that do these things. They are all morally wrong, some more than others, some also criminally wrong.

Anyway, I don't really care too much if he gets a statue or recognition. I don't know what I am arguing about it :LOL:
 
BobbyBox said:
I don't understand your first sentence? did I say the benefit of living in the uk was to become a racing driver? :LOL:

anyway, my point is that people are doing much more harm to society as a whole and get plaudits for many reasons. Much worse than sleeping with his own brothers wife.

I bet a large proportion of people that have statues in their honour have made some questionable moral decisions/actions to get there. What Giggs did was between him and his family. We don't know the full circumstances there at all (I don't, I don't know how much info came out about it?) his brother could be a dick and not a very nice person, who was abusing his wife and Giggs took care of her etc etc He could have just been a cunt and did what he did, but there are reasons that we don't know.

People who do stuff more morally wrong to society as a whole make me more angry.

It's definitely arguable what causes more trouble in society, a broken home, drugs, tax evasion leading to the unequal distribution of wealth. Some are consequences of the other and vice versa.

its a silly argument really, just dismissing, sex with underage girls, tax evasion etc and making Giggs out to be much worse than people that do these things. They are all morally wrong, some more than others, some also criminally wrong.

Anyway, I don't really care too much if he gets a statue or recognition. I don't know what I am arguing about it :LOL:
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I won't go into this too much since this is a football thread not a philosophy or political thread but...

No, you didn't say it, it's a hidden premise. Why should he be obligated to give what he earned to the unearned (government)? No-one likes a rip off merchant and yet when it comes to taxes they're all for it.

"anyway, my point is that people are doing much more harm to society as a whole and get plaudits for many reasons. Much worse than sleeping with his own brothers wife."

You can't treat Gigg's situation as a specific isolated incident and yet not to the same for the musician that snorts a bunch of lines. Very few single acts, outside of government, whether it be affairs, drugs or underage sex, harms the whole of society, obviously. Even 1 murder doesn't do that.

I'm not dismissing sex with underage girls, you're talking about those that are still respected. ie. a rockstar having sex with a groupie (hence my passport comment). We're not talking about the Saville's or Glitter's of this world. Neither are respected. It's the drugs and taxes comparison that bemuses me the most tbh.
 
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Godotelli said:
I won't go into this too much since this is a football thread not a philosophy or political thread but...

No, you didn't say it, it's a hidden premise. Why should he be obligated to give what he earned to the unearned (government)? No-one likes a rip off merchant and yet when it comes to taxes they're all for it.

"anyway, my point is that people are doing much more harm to society as a whole and get plaudits for many reasons. Much worse than sleeping with his own brothers wife."

You can't treat Gigg's situation as a specific isolated incident and yet not to the same for the musician that snorts a bunch of lines. Very few single acts, outside of government, whether it be affairs, drugs or underage sex, harms the whole of society, obviously. Even 1 murder doesn't do that.

I'm not dismissing sex with underage girls but you're talking about those that are still respected. ie. a rockstar having sex with a groupie (hence my passport comment). We're not talking about the Saville's or Glitter's of this world. Neither are respected
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the racing driver comment was because he has regsitered himself that he lives in a certain place to avoid taxes. He very rarely lives there and still spends alot of his time in the UK. (its an example I was giving and don't know too much of the circumstances, but it is one alot of famous/rich people do and get away with it).

people have a go at poor people on the doll doing cash in hand jobs etc but if you got all of the rich people to pay what they should, then society would be much better off, than the pocket change and the jailing of poorer people for doing much less to society. It just goes to show that obviously things are subjective, some people think some actions are worse than others, just like the two of us.

we will have to agree to disagree about the underage girls, the rockstars are taking advantage of their fame to take advantage of young underage girls. Just because they turn a blind eye to their real age and pretend, just because the girl said/implied she was overage, or didn't ask them etc doesn't mean they are not grown ups and have a moral responsibility.

All of these are examples, you may dismiss them, but imo they are far worse than two consenting adults having sex for a period of time, whether they are in a relationship or not.

but as you said it is a footy thread and it would be good to just go back on topic.
 
Not to harp on too much about this, the tax evasion thing is something to think about. Ideally the individual (we are talking about millionaires here) would give something back to their country as Bobby says.
But in some cases if you were in their shoes you'd do the same. Think about Françoise Hollande raising the taxes for the richest people in France to 75%. Seventy five!! Well this is outrageous and I can't blame a guy like Gerard Depardieu for saying 'f*ck that' and moving to Belgium to pay his taxes there.

Anyways, just wanted to say that. Sorry about the off topic guys! :D
 
As a Bermudian, I'd love nothing more than to get into the tax discussion, but think we should stick to football here ;)

Arsenal did today what we needed to do last week - put Cardiff away late with a good chance. Had we of done that, we'd look more like title contenders, and less like hopeful CL place contenders. Sutton and Cardiff - same story.

Aside from that, nice to hear Moyes bigging up Nani. If we can get him firing again it would make a huge difference to us. He offers genuine pace, and requires to defenders to mark him at all times.

Finally, not sure where Gerd heard we'd signed Koke - but like Thiago, I can't believe we'd actually sign a midfielder we need. Just goes against everything Untied have been doing in the past decade, more or less. ;)
 
Koke transferred to man Utd is all over the Belgian press because Atletico are in talks with de Bruynes manager as Koke's replacement.
Source: De Bruynes manager (not the best source, i know).


Depardieu went to Russia.
 
gerd said:
Koke transferred to man Utd is all over the Belgian press because Atletico are in talks with de Bruynes manager as Koke's replacement.
Source: De Bruynes manager (not the best source, i know).


Depardieu went to Russia.
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Cool, thanks. He's an actual central midfielder, who is actual quality, and would improve us immeasurably. So I can't believe it will happen :(

Maybe De Bruyne is to replace Herrera? Since his failed transfer, he's apparently been completely shut out by the new coach, and is now languishing on the sidelines.

Would have though it would be in everyone's best interest to let Ander go, at this stage.
 
YoungGun_UK said:
Kagawa and Jones need to start centrally tommorow, I think with that we'll do much better as a team.
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Assuming RvP wont start tomorrow (i assume he ll be brought on as a sub if fit) we all probably see a similar formation as we had against Bayern. Though i expect Vidic to be back in the starting lineup for this one..Rafael instead of Smalling would be nice too but that all probably be another sub. Doubt Moyes will have Giggs starting again but i never underestimate our clubs motivation to throw the old lad back out there. Really really hope Nani and Kagawa start..those guys need to get some games in.
 
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Godotelli said:
welbeck dragging his leg into Lloris. Bit sneaky
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That's weak. Was a penalty, even most Spurs fans agree. The only way welbeck could have avoided the keeper would have been to not put his leg down and fall which should be a pen too. Llrois was rash, shouldn't have gone to ground.
 
playing at home tonight against a good team but we really need to get the win tonight, hopefully RVP can atleast make the bench.

defensively were doing much better than earlier in the season I'd like to see Nani/Januzaj/Rooney all playing.
 
Lloris made a mistake.
I'm not 100% sure about the penalty (was at first, but i have a litle bit doubt no, one can certainly give him), Spurs didn't deserve more than a draw.
Both teams lack creativity.
It seems quite a few matches since Januzaj playes, or am i wrong ?
 
I'd like to see something like this (although it would probably not happen because none of these except Rooney is a player who helps much defensively)

---------- Rooney ----------
Nani ---- Kagawa --- Januzaj

At least I hope we see 3 of these players on the pitch tonight, with Kagawa playing behind Rooney - it looked incredible against Leverkusen. :...
 
Gerd - Januzaj played against Cardiff, but seemed to really struggle with the physical side of things. I'd imagine he'd be on the bench tonight, but if we need a strong winger it would be nice to give Zaha a chance...

During the Spurs game quite a few players weren't up to their expected standard, so think the midfield might get changed up again. It might even be an idea to play Rooney behind the striker so he can help out defensively, which sadly means Kags gets moved out of position.
Wouldn't be surprised to see:

--------Hernandez
Kags/Nani--Rooney--Valencia
----Fellaini---Jones
 
Huge match for Moyes tonight. Absolutely massive to his 'narrative'. Win and he's shown that he can handle the position, lose at OT and Martinez would have been a better choice. That's how the press works.

Personally, I don't see what the hell we're going to in central midfield. Jones is out with 5 yellows, Giggs hasn't looked good outside of Europe, Carrick is injured and Cleverley is, well, mediocre. Has to be Fellaini, fingers crossed for the big man.

Don't know how we're going to get a result tonight, but we have to. Fingers crossed.
 
I do wonder how we'd be doing if we'd appointed a more proactive manager with a footballing philosophy rather than the "more of the same" approach Moyes has brought so far, after previous seasons of mostly underwhelming football in terms of aesthetics.

Not too bothered about the game, Everton have played some very nice football but I think we have enough firepower to beat them without looking overly convincing.

Someone like McCarthy would have suited us better and given us a proper long-term replacement for Carrick instead of Fellaini. With each passing game, that summer transfer window starts looking more and more like a big opportunity wasted.

That fact that we've never even seemed to be interested in a lot of the now established central midfielders like Vidal over the years makes me question our European scouting.
 
I woudn´t say scouting is the problem or?

If things were going good, Pogba and Morisson would be playing in midfield now..
 
oooo everton? good game. Could it be a City away win and a Utd home loss tonight? :PRAY:

Come on, Lukaku! :BSCARF: (love this loan system :LOL:)
 
Argh! It's Martin Atkinson!

So far he has:

17 Min: Given United an 'advantage' when fouled 2 yards outside the penalty area, centrally, perfectly placed for a free kick. The 'advantage' immediately went to an Everton defender.

21 Min: Gareth Barry clatters into Wayne Rooney in a similar position, no where near the ball. No foul.

23 Min: Welbeck plays a nutmeg through an Everton defender, get's taken down. No foul.

Edit: How are we not ahead?! Some great attacking play, no idea how we've not put it in. Rooney off the inside of the post, Welbz doin his thing and missing tight and a great chance for Giggs' header that went inches wide.

Playing pretty well to be honest. Fellaini has been solid.
 
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I've been watching to match too, nothing wrong with the ref...i've also seen all those things...you see ghosts beach...

One couldalso question his decision in the pushing duel between Vidicand Lukaku. Both pushed the other, Vidic pushed first (no foul), Lukaku pushed harder (foul). Is that a mistake by the ref ? No. It's all very difficult to make those decioson (interpretation in a split second).

Good match.
 
I agree on the Lukaku one, not a foul for me. Also saw a replay of my third above, and that wasn't a foul.

All I need to know that Atkinson is hurting us is that Lee Dixon agrees with every decision ;)
 
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