Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

anyone see Galliani's look whe Abbiati saved the penalty, my god priceless Leo also raises his hands in surrender. This sums it up:

YouTube - Abbiati.wmv

Berlusconi and Leonardo seem to be not so on the same page anymore. It all started with Leo asking for a wide attacking midfielder and he got him without Berlusconi knowing and the CL loss didn't help. It's looking very serious anyway.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

I like Mourinho's character... but I think he goes too far sometimes. He just got a 3 match suspension and Cambiasso and Muntari got 2 match bans.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

it's no big deal, zeem. berlusconi came out with one of his usual moronic comments.... then leonardo shut up his mouth with a very classy answer and the whole situation cooled down.

another week another stunning performance from palermo.... i just wish this season would never end. it's not just about the beauty of our football, and it isn't even about the results (no major injuries, key players in great form... right now we're in fire, but of course, sooner or later we'll hit some bad breaks).
it's the way we handle the matches that impresses me the most.
watching us playing, we don't really look like the usual italian midclass team... i mean samp, genoa, fiorentina (napoli is doing great, but they're not much fun to watch lately), they all play some very nice football, but they always have to fight hard to get the job done and grab the 3 points.
palermo, on the other side, doesn't seem to put that much of an effort... yesterday, for example, we were on cruise control for the whole match and yet we litterally dismantled lazio.... it almost looked as if we weren't even trying that hard, as if we could have scored a 4th and a 5th goal, but just couldn't bother. the composure the teams shows as a whole, the awareness of the players... it's almost as if they were pretending to be a top class team.... and boy, it's working!

the craziest thing is that, despite the awesome season we're having, we might well end up with no major achievements at all. from the 4th (juve) to the 9th (cagliari) place, there are 6 teams in 3 points.... and even though fiorentina (10th) are now 6 points behind us, they still have 1 match to play, wich means they might well reach the rest of the group and make it a "7 teams in 3 points" situation.... it's exciting and frustrating at the same time.... 1 win and we're in champions league (4th), one loss and we might get back to 10th place and not even get a uefa cup qualification spot.

I like Mourinho's character... but I think he goes too far sometimes. He just got a 3 match suspension and Cambiasso and Muntari got 2 match bans.

yeah, sometimes he just lets his narcisism take control of his act.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Too bad Miccoli dived Ben

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Too bad Miccoli dived Ben

yeah, i got to say i was surprised by that... that's not something usual for him.
besides we didn't even need that, as we were already in lead and in confortable control of the match.

however i don't understand lotito's and reja's complains... yeah, that was definitely not a penalty... but come on.. u lost 3-1 and got completely outplayed... that penalty didn't "change the script of the game"; so it's kinda silly to blame the ref, as if he was the reason why u lost a match, as that's clearely not the case.

anyhow i got to say we're getting away with many questionable calls lately.....but obviously, since we're not a top club like inter, milan or juve, no one cares..... if any of those teams would have gotten away with what we did, man, the whole country would be "smelling complots" right now....luckily we're not "powerful" enough to get any sort of attention from other fans and media

 

[Dominic]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Palermo meet juve next week hey? Should be interesting. Shame Marchisio is out, the midfield looks very wild without him there.. man this player has grown.

 

[Leo Bax]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

I like Mourinho's character... but I think he goes too far sometimes. He just got a 3 match suspension and Cambiasso and Muntari got 2 match bans.

I agree with you. I hate a lot him when he act like a clown, when he complain ref even when he win. Ok, he's not the classic italian manager that say the same words "we played good, in a hard stadium, against a hard team, our goal is the salvation, I'm happy for my guys, it wasn't so easy to beat X" and other rhetoric words, but sometimes he piss out of jar and I hate him when he act like a dumb (like yesterday, for example......were there the need to do that gesture?!)

Ben, talking about someone who didn't use rhetoric words, I liked (and laughted) when Zenga talked about Scudetto, and IMO if Roma is in second place, why can't Palermo be there? I mean if Zenga didn't have that bad matches to me (and with Juventus, Genoa, Napoli and Fiorentina's collapse) your team could be surely in top 4. This year Serie A is too much incostant, for example Parma some weeks ago was 4th, now it's near relegation zone

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Palermo meet juve next week hey? Should be interesting. Shame Marchisio is out, the midfield looks very wild without him there.. man this player has grown.

really?! i didn't know we were about to face juve this week.... given the circumstances, i can't say i'm really looking forward to this match..... infact the timing for this match couldn't be worse..... for both teams.
about marchisio, i can't say i'm surprised by his growth... infact claudio is today exactly the player i thought he would have become at his current age.... and i can tell you, that's just the beginning... he already is a very nice player, but i expect him to become much more than that.... of course i shouldn't be taken too seriously when it comes to rating players.... but since, according to his current progresses, i was proven right about him (at least so far), chances are he will become exactly that monster i always thought he would have become.
it also makes u wonder what a demigod would giovinco be right now if only he would have been given as much playtime as marchisio..... what a shame

Ben, talking about someone who didn't use rhetoric words, I liked (and laughted) when Zenga talked about Scudetto, and IMO if Roma is in second place, why can't Palermo be there? I mean if Zenga didn't have that bad matches to me (and with Juventus, Genoa, Napoli and Fiorentina's collapse) your team could be surely in top 4. This year Serie A is too much incostant, for example Parma some weeks ago was 4th, now it's near relegation zone

i wouldn't say this serie a is inconstant....the thing is the gap between the teams is very very little, so form becomes a huge factor.... but at the end of the season the real quality factors will prevail imo.... u took parma as an example... well parma has a very talented team... lots of high potential youngsters..... that's the reason why they're having such a good season.... but that's also the reason why they were meant to have a downfall at some point in the season (because they're pretty young and unexperienced). and actually i even knew when this bad period would have started. u see, for obvious reasons, i know guidolin very well.... he has a very heavy and intense summer athletic preparation schedule and a very light december\xmas pause training schedule.... and precisely because of that, all his teams have always a terrific, great kickstart, and an horrible second half of the season.... it's always like this with guidolin, make no mistake

however, getting to your point, i don't think a comparison between palermo and roma is in order..... and i don't think palermo is top 4 material.....
palermo is a very good team, which is having an amazing season.... roma is an amazing team which is having an average season... that's the difference between us.
just look at what ranieri did when he took over. he brought roma back to basics. since the team was in shambles, after spalletti's departure, he said "ok, enough with that fancy sophisticated football that was your trademark in the spalletti era... let's get back to simple football and see where can we go from here". infact it worked.... in a few weeks roma was back on track...... but.... would u really call that "simple football"?.... i mean it's the usual ranieri's football, okay.... but how do they display that football? it's pretty evident they're nothing like ranieri's juventus.... and why is that? because no matter what kind of football u have them playing, the players will always "interpretate" the coaches directives.... if we would try to picture roma's football on a blackboard... it would look pretty much like ranieri's juventus football.... yet the end result is completely different, because roma players are completely different from juve players. therefore their interpretation of ranieri's football becomes completely different from juventus one. given the high quality rate of their midfield, the nice passers they have at midfield, they were able to transform even a pretty simple, straight forward football like ranieri's one, into something beautiful.
long story short, the difference between roma and palermo lies in their dna.... palermo is a nice team with some great individuals and a great coach..... but roma belongs to different standards.

there's also another huge difference between a top class team and a midclass team (like palermo): the mentality factor.
here in italy midclass teams (as well as some low class teams) are a joy to watch.... and it's not about the players (our midclass teams are filled with great players, but english and spanish midclass teams are not that different from us on this concern).... it's about the football they play (that's where the big gap between italian midclass/lowclass teams and their english or spanish counterparts lies)...... but no matter how nice they are, they still don't have the mentality of a top class team.
midclass teams live their seasons on their mood... when they're having a great form period they can even give u the illusion they're pretty much as good as some top class teams (as palermo and napoli are doing right now.... as samp did at the beginning of the season or as udinese did last season).... but sooner or later they will inevitably face a downfall... coz they'll get complacent with their results..... and that's the biggest mistake u can do as a "performer". don't look at what u've done so far until the season is over... that's what top class teams do.
midlcass teams don't have this "winning mentality"... when u're doing well, the temptation to look at the table and think "hey we're doing great this season" it's too strong.... and when they get complacent with their results, that's exactly when they stop performing.
top class teams aren't that "moody". they're used to stay on top, so that's no big deal for them... and they don't look at the table until the season is over.

at the beginning of the season sampdoria was on fire. it almost looked like they were the most credible competitors for inter..... and indeed samp is a nice team with some great individuals and a very nice football..... but, being a midclass team, after a few months, they settled down... they felt happy with their results and that's when they had their crisis.... then, when the crisis ended, they got back to their nice football, but look at where are they know..... exactly where they were supposed to be at the very beginning of the season (in the midclass zone).
palermo, as well as sampdoria, genoa, napoli and all our others great midclass teams can't keep that constant "alert status" required to be a title contender or even a top class team, we're not used to it, so sooner or later, we will lower our guard, we will get complacent with our season (as if the season was already over) and will begin to drop points.

that's why i said to dominic i'm not really looking forward the matchup between palermo and juve. i mean, looking at how palermo and juve played in the last 3 months, i shouldn't be worried at all. as a matter of fact palermo is a nice, balanced and offensive team, with a very well defined personality..... while juve is a bunch of great individuals who don't even make a team, nevermind being a good one... we shoud tear them apart.....

but that's not gonna happen... infact i'm afraid we'll loose that match.... coz that's exactly one of those situation when u can see and appreciate that "mentality factor" i mentioned before.
we've done very well so far this season... our players have nothing to prove, and will go to torino with no particular pressure...... while juve, on the other side will be fired up.
even though their mentality isn't yet (we're talking about a relatively new and young team) as "top class oriented" as inter's or roma's... they still have a top class mentality compared to palermo..... and even though, they're nowhere near as good as we are (as a team, i mean) they'll enter the pitch, knowing that they must win..... while we will enter the pitch thinking "ok, so far so good, now let's see what we can do against juve"..... and this difference in the mental approach to the game, will probably turn out to be a decisive factor.

having said that, i would love to be proved wrong, of course

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Apparently Mourinho said, "I don't stick my head in the sand, I know there is only one team [in Italy] that has a penalty area 25 metres long..." he has hit the nail on the head with that comment!

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

oh for crying out loud edmundo, why are u so obsessed with juve!?! u're even paying attention to mourinho's remarks now!?! Come on, u're smarter than that.
u're even a lazio fan, aren't u? what about that ridiculous penalty palermo were gifted this week against lazio? why a small team like palermo can take advantage of a questionable call and no one cares, while juve must get bashed for every single controversial ref decision that goes in their favour?

this situation is getting ridiculous.... and mind u, i'm saying just "ridiculous", just coz i'm not a juve fan.... coz if i were a juventino, i'd rather say that's unfair, dirty, low and cheap.

all this drama coz juve got 2 undeserved penalties in the last 5 weeks...... funnily enough that's exactly the same ammount of undeserved penalties palermo got in even less time (1 last week against lazio, and another one the week before against roma)..... yet this doesn't seem to raise mourinho's eyebrows nor yours.

but that's not even the main problem. u see, the referees are not a problem, the questionable calls are not a problem, mourinho is not a problem...... our real problem is that some fans are so shortshighted, they would actually listen to mourinho's bullishits, rather than thinking with their own heads...
jeez that drama queen would say everything, just create some controversy, get some attention by the media and masturbate while thinking at the sound produced by his own voice.... and there's even someone who actually listen to those bullshits.

wake up!!!

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Well first of all I have been saying these things about Juventus for years, since the times when Mourinho was a translator for Robson at Barca. If you trawl back through my early posts (if they still exist) you can see this. I dont agree with much of what Mourinho says in general he is egotistic, but on this issue I think he is correct, even a broken clock can be correct twice a day.

Anyway this miasma is ruining the italian game, it's been happening for years. I can remember Roma were robbed around 5 years ago, on the camera you could even see Panucci even saying something like [to the ref], "You're not supposed to help them that much."

Everyone could see the whole 1997/1998 season was a farce in terms of ref decisions for Juventus. Then in that game in April 1998, Juventus v Inter there were those stupid decisions, Ronaldo was fouled by Iuliano and then the ref let play go on - it was probably one of the most obvious penalties not given in recent times, and then they even sent Gigi Simoni (at the time the coach of Inter) off for his protestations. Ze Elias was also sent off, yet Juve players like Davids got no punishment for kicking out at Diego Simeone.

Apologies for going back to this recent history and I understand that many people were too young to remember it, but the point of going over this history is everyone who challenged Juventus pre 2005/6 was told they were "mad" or "a conspiracy theorist" etc, but as the scandal proved, there was massive centering upon that club. Although it should be noted that the league authorities only acted when there was overwhelming phone evidence which they could no longer ignore. FIGC should have cleaned all this up with the calciopoli inquest, they should have stuck to their guns and been really strong in terms of punishment. But they are now letting it creep back in. As others have said in this thread a few pages ago, it's like from behind the scenes Juventus are being pushed into 4th place. Week in, week out they are getting questionable decisions. It is DESTROYING the image of Italian football, one of the once great leagues in Europe is becoming a circus due to these hidden hands helping Juventus. People want to watch a genuine league, where all the teams have an even chance of competition, this isnt happening at the moment in Serie A.

I saw the Palermo - Lazio game last night via a re-run, and to be honest Lazio lost the tactical battle, but this was not suprising given Delio Rossi knows how most of the Lazio players play having coached them only a few months ago. Palermo are a strong team at home and very few teams go there and get results, for instance Lazio won at home to Palermo last month in the Cup game, but away its much more difficult. The penalty was a bad decision but, unlike the recent Juventus decisions, it did not alter the overall result and was of minimal signficance, Lazio were already going to lose that match.

In actual fact I don't really care that much about Juventus being gifted points in Serie A, I can switch off and watch other leagues in Europe (Portuguese, French, Spanish, German etc) and ultimately the dodgy decisions that surround them in Serie A will not infect the Champions League. It's just sad that this issue will continue to blight what was once the top European league.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Everyone could see the whole 1997/1998 season was a farce in terms of ref decisions for Juventus

and infact that's what everyone in italy thought... what does that has to do with the current situation? i mean are u really trying to argue your point by talking about something that happened 12 years ago?

didn't u notice the storm that hit moggi, giraudo, carraro, pairetto, bergamo, and all those referees in summer 2006? it almost looks like u're implying nothing happened..... the system moggi built has been litterally dismantled..... all the people involved in that shit were kicked out of serie a for good in about 2 months... on the 14 december 2009 giraudo has been sentenced to 3 years in prison..... moggi is still waiting his sentence (wich will be even heavier than this)....meanwhile they've both been banned fro italian football.
... juventus, not only as a team, but as a club got completely dismantled by the calciopoli scandal...the agnelli family had to rebuild the whole club from scratch.... new president, new ceos, new sport director, new financial directors, new players (except those few who stayed)......

juventus is not a living entity edmundo.... as any other company, it's nothing but an empty box.....the people who are in charge, they are juventus...secco, blanc, they are the ones through wich juventus (as any other company in the world) operates...
so ure implying secco and blanc are trying to do what moggi and giraudo did? really???....those 2 idiots? they can't even take care of their own club.... and u think they could set up such a criminal masterpiece????.... well sure they're not doing such a great job, since juventus has to fight to even get the 4th place...

besides giraudo and moggi couldn't have done anything without the "external support" of bergamo and pairetto...... they got banned and replaced by collina...... so u also believe that collina would actually do what giraudo and pairetto did?? oh come one get real!
do u know secco and blanc phone calls are under strict control since they were given the job at juve?.... the magistrates even knew when secco called lippi to ask some players advices..... they can't even spit without everyone knowing it before their spit touches the ground!

i'm not trying to have a go at u mate, but seriously, i can't believe u actually believe what u're implying.... moggi and giraudo controlled serie a by interfeering also with other teams matches (which could have an impact on juventus position on the league table)....... if they were still in charge (or if secco and blanc were doing the same things they did) then i can guarrantee, a 4th place contender club like palermo wouldn't get away with all those questionable calls we actually took advantage from....
what's the point in pushing juve to the 4th spot..... if they also push another 4th place contender with the same questionable calls..... that's so silly and obvious i shouldn't even remark it.

and all of this just coz of 2 underserved penalties..... do u really believe juventus never lost a match coz of a referee's mistake? do u really believe no other club in italy gets away with questionable calls?

Although it should be noted that the league authorities only acted when there was overwhelming phone evidence which they could no longer ignore

yeah, so what? do u think FIGC should have punished juve basing his decision just on suspects? that's a democratic country.... u don't charge people with accusations until u got evidence.
actually let me tell u something.... i think we should be proud of how FIGC reacted to the calciopoli scandal.......other european leagues have some serious issues aswell (different issues, but not less serious than ours), yet they keep sweeping their dirt under the carpet, to "save" the image of those leagues..... and they will keep doing like this until those issues will irreparably compromise those leagues..... we had the balls to seek for the truth and to expose it. we destroyed the reputation of one of the biggest clubs in the world, stripped it of 2 scudetti, dumped it in serie b and forced the owners to rebuild the club from scratch.....

pretending nothing happened is an insult to juventus fans and to seria a as a whole
and implying that blanc and secco ar trying to do what moggi and giraudo did... is just ridiculous.... and every week we got proof of how ridiculous this accusation is..... any time another club get a good result thanks to a wrong referee's call... milan, inter, roma, palermo, napoli, lazio..... yeah, lazio too got some questionable calls edmundo.

actually i'll tell ut what, from now on, i hope juve fans in this thread will remark and point our attention to every wrong referee's call that will cost juventus a win.... and maybe that will put things in the right perspective.

once again edmundo, don't take this as a personal attack, as that's not the case. 2 seasons ago dominic was complaining about all those questionable calls inter was getting away with.... so i tried to help him see the situation from a wider perspective... and he actually realised that there was nothing dirty behind those quiestionable calls and that moratti wasn't that criminal mastermind he might have thought he was at first glance....... now i'm doing the same with u by telling u to get real!
i could easily prove all your suspicions wrong by letting u consider all the "referee favours" napoli and palermo (4th place contender aswell) got in the past 5 weeks.
that alone should be enough to bring u back to reality.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

The reason why I brought up events and incidents from around 12 years ago is because, at the time (1997) even though the evidence was obvious in 1997 nothing was done and it was assumed that anyone who questioned the validity of Juventus's results was some crazy conspiracy theorist. Don't forget there was also a Juventus drugs scandal exposed by Zeman around this time too, and again this was brushed aside. And the point about looking at this season in the context of other historical seasons is it seems to be an endemic problem associated with the club.

My point about FIGC only acting after overwhelming evidence is that like the 1997 season or the drugs scandals it seems as though there was an attempt to ignore the problem. Only when the evidence forced the issue, were the measures taken. Additionally they backed down from the original punishments. A relegation to Serie C was changed to Serie B and a possible 30 point deduction became 17 and then only 9 points. To give this context, 9 points is less than UK clubs (e.g. Crystal Palace) get for going into administration (which is financial mismangement, a less serious crime of accounting rather than one of corruption). I think FIGC had good intentions to properly punish Juventus, but they backed down for whatever reason, and the lack of financial and significant points punishment meant it was in effect a one-season punishment for Juventus during the 2006-7 season. The punishment that Fiorentina got for going bankrupt in around 2003 was far worse. I really don't think you can say they got totally dismantled as a team, they got a relegation and a minor point deduction. Some players left (e.g. Ibrahimovic, Vieira, Cannavaro etc) but many others stayed (Buffon, Del Piero, Trezeguet) they even signed Boomsong during as the demotion was happening, compare that to just one player who stayed with Fiorentina (Di Livio). I do applaud FIGC for exposing the situation and not brushing it away, but the punishments were too insignificant in the end. Juventus did not have to rebuild from scratch the team was not decimated and there was no significant financial loss for the team. It was a season-long slap on the wrists. This was no "rebuilding from scratch" at all.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Juventus did not have to rebuild from scratch the team was not decimated and there was no significant financial loss for the team. It was a season-long slap on the wrists. This was no "rebuilding from scratch" at all.

oh come on, how can u say that. that's just wrong in any possible sense. club's president, fired and prosecuted... the ceo, fired and prosecuted... the coach, gone..... the whole backbone of the team, gone.... 5 players out of the starting 11..... 5 world class players.....5 players who were playing the world cup final that same year were gone... a financial loss wich was estimated in more than 500 millions euros (would u call that insignificant?).... aclub which won the last 2 scudetti, stripped of them and sent in serie b, with even a points deduction.....
what else do u need to call it a fair response? a public execution?
u say that the second sentence was unfair.... that they should have sent them in serie c.... but u seem to ignore the difference between the concepts of objective responability and subjective responsability in a judicial context. this whole process wasn't aimed to destroy juventus as a structure (that would have just been a sadic medieval repression act) it was aimed to punish the actual psysical responsibles of the crime.... and that is the only fair response to such a situation.

u're pretending to compare the juventus situation to fiorentina's situation..that just doesn't make sense. fiorentina wasn't punished at all.... when a company faces bankrupts... it dies. fiorentina wasn't sent in serie c... fiorentina died as a company. della valle didn't bought fiorentina, coz fiorentina no longer existed. he founded a new company.... and as any "new club" it had to start from serie c.... that's how it goes when a company faces bankrupt.... he couldn't even call it "fiorentina"... he had to give it a different name (florentia viola) and then, after one season, he was able to buy the name "fiorentina" back... along with the dead company's titles. this has nothing to do with a punishment. it's just the legal consequence of bankrupt.
u think juventus should have faced the same consequences? it's quite easy to get judgemental, when u consider juventus as if it was just about moggi and giraudo...... but that's wrong. have u considered the stockholders position? have u considered the fans position? have u ever thought about juventus players????
does it seem fair to u to have people who had nothing to do with that disgusting thing, enduring the consequences of moggis and giraudo's actions????
when juventus got punished, moggi and giraudo weren't the only ones who payed for it..... the players (who gave their soul on the pitch without taking part to moggi's and giraudo's dirty plots), the fans, who saw the image of their club destroyed because of those 2 dirty bastards.... they all payed a price.... for something they had no responsability...... have u ever considered that?

the first sentence was based on the assumption moggi and giraudo "were juventus legal representation"..... once the club took distance from those 2 bastards then the judge did the only right thing to do. decrease the punishement (and it was still a hell of a punishment).... because it would have been unfair to rage against what was left of the club...... as those people who remained had no faults at all. and that's undeniable.

the truth is a lot of people were effected by that sentence.... a lot of people who had no part in that disgusting fraud. u're asking for a "populist" heavier punishment, but u should really consider this before getting carried away with your hatred.

and let me point that out again.... saying that punishment was a season-long slap on the wrists is an understatement of monumental proportions..... it was 2006 when the scandal broke up, those days juventus was one of the strongest teams in the world (7 players out of their starting 11 played the world cup final that year... i guess this says it all) which was coming from 2 scudetti won in a row and which was a consistent presence in the champions league....
now it's 2010, and 4 years after, juventus has a financial capitalization wich is less than half as much as it was 4 years ago..... and the team is far from being a european top class club...... right now they're fighting with the likes of palermo and napoli to reach the 4th spot in the table and they are playing in the europa league....
seriously man, get real..... season long slap my arse!

The reason why I brought up events and incidents from around 12 years ago is because, at the time (1997) even though the evidence was obvious in 1997 nothing was done and it was assumed that anyone who questioned the validity of Juventus's results was some crazy conspiracy theorist.

that's wrong too. everyone.... and i mean everyone (even juventus fans) realised what was going on.... infact when the scandal broke up no one in italy was surprised.... NO ONE. the point is we couldn't define our suspicions other than "theories" until we got evidences.... and as i said earlier, in a civilized country, people don't get charged with accusations untill there are evidences to back up those suspicions.

those suspicions had reason to exist those days..... today, i could dismantle any accusation against any sort of complots, just by remarking how juventus contenders for the 4th place are getting advantage of the same wrong referee's calls. and that's an undeniable fact.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

As you say they lost less than half their team (5 out of 11), a lot of the big players (Del Piero, Nedved, Buffon, Trezeguet etc) stayed on. In no way can you say the entire team was broken up. In 2008 all those players I've listed were still playing for them. Lazio lost players in the two years after winning Serie A (Nesta, Nedved, Veron, Crespo, Simeone) all left in around that time, and Stankovic not that long later. Dortmund lost the spine of their team within two years of 1997, when they swept all before them in the Champions League (Matthias Sammer, Silva Julio Cesar, Jorg Heinrich, Paul Lambert, Steffen Freund, Paulo Sousa, Karl-Heinz Riedle all went within two years). It was 4 years before they would get to the Champions League again. Ajax too lost a lot of players after getting to two finals in the mid 1990s. Kluivert, Bogarde, Davids, the De Boers, Reiziger, Overmars all left within two years of the 1996 final and Seedorf had left right after the 1995 final. Teams are broken up after winning things, and Juventus selling players like Canavarro, Ibrahimovic, Vieria, Thuram, Zambrotta etc (all sold at their market value in terms of transfer fees) was not of a different magnitude to the breaking-up of Dortmund, Lazio, Ajax etc.

Juventus were back playing Champions League football less than 2 years after the punishment. You can talk about CEOs, CFOs, presidents etc leaving but how much of the entire board of Manchester City has changed twice in the last 3 years. Birmingham City's board of directors have just moved en-mass to West Ham (who in turn had changed their board of directors less than 4 years ago). In Russia the board of Spartak Moscow changed in 2007. On occasion board level changes happen in football much as they do in most major industries. If a sound operational structure and business plan are in place the impact should be minimal. You describe the share price of Juventus being half what is was 4 years ago, here is a table of share prices (all in Euros):

Juventus Football Club S.p.A. (726480)
1.2122 price on 22/2/2006
0.865 price on 22/2/2010

-28% down


Societa Sportiva Lazio S.p.A. (777364)
0.3845 price on 22/2/2006
0.352 price on 22/2/2010

-8% down

Roma (5973936)
0.51 price on 22/2/2006
0.8195 price on 22/2/2010

60% up

As there are only 3 Italian traded Football clubs (Lazio, Juventus, Roma) you can see Juventus has lost just over a quarter of it's value, Roma has increased it's value by just under two-thirds and Lazio had decreased it's value by a small 8%.

However if we look at other European clubs we can see the losses of Juventus are not actually that much below trends, in some cases Juventus's loss is not nearly as great as other clubs

Sport Lisboa e Benfica-Futebol SAD (B1XMCF)
6 price **as at market launch 22/5/2007
2.5 price on 22/2/2010

-58% down


Borussia Dortmund GmbH (462719)
2.320614 price on 22/2/2006
1.062 price on 22/2/2010

-54% down


Tottenham Hotspur PLC (0896298)
0.6958737 price on 22/2/2006
0.8321871 price on 22/2/2010

19.5% up

Celtic PLC (043391)
0.534724 price on 22/2/2006
0.5243919 price on 22/2/2010

-1.9% down

Rangers Football C. PLC (0723738)
1.1353728
0.4844925

-57% down

(All these prices are in Euros)

So you can see very few clubs listed on publich exchanges have gone up in price. Only really Spurs and Roma, others like Celtic and Lazio have had marginal falls, and many other big clubs (Benfica, Dortmund, Rangers) have fallen a lot more that Juventus in terms of finances.


There is all this talk of losses in excess of 500m EUR but I've never seen how this figure was calculated. This is extracted from their income statement (all figures in millions of Euros), brackets are negative.

Annual Net Sales Gross Income EBITDA

06/2002 164.7 (43.3) 85.8
06/2003 200.1 4.1 72.1
06/2004 181.9 (3.3) 45.7
06/2005 204.9 14.6 67.9
06/2006 199.2 5.5 28.7
06/2007 176.8 47.6 31.3
06/2008 196.5 46.7 18.3
06/2009 232.2 62.8 43.7

From 2005 to now, net sales never fell below 175 million, which is way above their 2002 level of 164. Gross income slipped in 2006 by around 9m EUR, but even then it shot back up to 47.6 (way above it's prior figure) in 2007.

By comparison, let's look at Lazio's figures:

Annual: Net Sales Gross Income EBITDA
06/2002 103.1 (96.0) (11.8)
06/2003 92.1 (52.2) (70.3)
06/2004 95.1 (44.1) (37.4)
06/2005 73.1 (5.4) 65.4
06/2006 60.6 (3.2) 39.0
06/2007 70.5 28.1 25.9
06/2008 94.7 53.3 44.0
06/2009 89.3 48.4 35.3

So even in the middle of this "punishment" Juventus still had a net sales 3 times higher than Lazios, and it's income was 8.7 m EUR more than Lazio's (which was negative). All this twaddle about losing 500m is some fancifull projection of "what if's" and the balance sheet just doesnt back it up, financially they were in a much better position than other clubs who were in Serie A (e.g. Lazio).

So far as I'm aware (and I could be wrong on this point as there seems to be very little documentation on it) Juventus never even repaid FIGC or Inter the money they obtained through winnings and sponsorship for the 2006 title which they've now been stripped of.

You talk about how I should feel sorry for the fans and the players who had nothing to do with Moggi and co... But then you also mention how, "everyone (even juventus fans) realised what was going on [in 1997]" - I dont understand this, if the fans knew 1997 was dodgy could they not spot the mid 2000s were dodgy. The fans and players may not have had any control over the inducement to refs, but they must have known something was wrong, could they not tell there was a hidden hand ?

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Edmundo, 90% of the fans just care about winning. The way their favourite team wins does not matter.

You talk about clubs like Ajax and Dortmund loosing more players after triumphs. How sad i think this is, it is normal for those clubs to loose their best players because they come second in the pecking order after big clubs like Man Utd, Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona...and Juventus. This football as a commercial product in a free market.
Personally i'm gutted that money is so important, but that's just the way it is.

I agree with Ben.

I only have one question. You say any new club can start in Serie C...this can't be true...i could found a totally new club in a tiny litle village which has never had a football club...surely this team has to start lower than Serie C ?

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

using the share price and the ebitda to prove the point that juve didn't suffer such a bad financial loss?....... nice try buddy
when i talked about their capitalization i wasn't referring to their "market capitalization"... wich is a completely different thing.... the market capitalization won't tell u anything about the true financial situation of a company.... it's just an indicator of the investors trust in the financial stability of the company.....
also the share price won't tell u anything about their losses... as it's effected by many other external factors......if tomorrow the agnelli family would come out with a public statement, saying they intend to sell, say, the 5% of their shares..... the price would sink instantly..... while if they would say they're gonna make some massive investments on the team next year, then in 2 hours the share price would go sky-high. besides a club like juventus, with a massive major shareholder and a very slight float, won't ever show massive increases or decreases in the share price.
..... so don't use market capitalization to prove your point..... u're not gonna fool me this way.


and it's also unappropriate and deceptive to use the ebitda the prove the point that juventus didn't undergo some major financial losses.... (wich makes me believe u did it on purpose ). in order to keep an acceptable ebitda margin juve had to sell cannavaro, thuram, zambrotta, ibrahimovic and vieira...... and, unlike all those others clubs u mentioned in your post, juventus didn't sell those players by its own will.... they didn't sell em coz "a cycle was over" or coz the players asked a move.... they HAD to sell em in order to cope with the upcoming lack of major incomes related to champions league, pay-tv rights, merchandising and so on.... they were forced to sell those players coz they couldn't afford to keep em all in serie b.
but if they would have decided not to sell them, then u would have read a completely different ebitda margin for 2007 and 2008 (and i'm pretty sure u're well aware of it).
and it's not just that either. the ebitda doesn't take into account the taxes (ebitda actually stands for "earning before interests, taxes, depreciation and ammortization") .... now about half of juventus 2006 ebitda margin comes from those massive players transfers.... wich means that the taxation data is much much higher than any other club in that list.... none of those clubs sold players for more than 60 millions euros that year in 2006.... so as soon as u put the taxation back into the equation..... well the figures change.... A LOT!

u say that u never read how that massive loss people talks about was calculated..... well of course u didn't, as no one writes a balance sheet including incomes that didn't actually came..... but if u wanna get an idea, just take a look at any other top flight club figures, and pay attentions to the incomes related to tv-rights, sponsorships, champion's league incomes and merchandising.... that what juve lost... it doesn't take an analist to figure out what kind of numbers we're talking about.

On occasion board level changes happen in football much as they do in most major industries.

yeah, but clubs usually do it by their own decision.... and they do it coz they obviously consider it a "step up".... that's absolutely not the case here (wich makes that birmingham and man city comparison absolutely wrong and unappropriate)..... juventus HAD to fire their moggi and giraudo because of what those bastards did.... they destroyed the reputation of the club, so the ownership felt obliged to take distance from them and start over...... but that change was never supposed to be a step up...... they replaced moggi and giraudo (who, despite being 2 dirty bastards..... i have to admit, were also 2 of the best, the smartest managers in european football) with a bunch of newbies like cobolli, blanc and secco.

let's be honest, mate. this is not about serie b or serie c.... this is not about how harsh the sentence was.... i mean it's 4 years now since the sentence and juve is still nowhere near as good as it was before calciopoli..... and i believe it will take at least 4 more years to actually see juve back where it belongs to..... that's 8 years...... if they would have been sent in serie c, this would have make it 9 years to be back.... just 1 year more (as they would have obviously get promoted in serie b in their first season)... 1 year more sure doesn't make much of a difference, does it?
so let's say the truth: u can't stand the fact that juventus is still "alive" as a club... that's the reason of your hatred..... and that's probably also the reason why u seem to notice just the ref's calls wich go in juventus favour and not the ones that go in napoli, palermo, inter, milan favour.

there's no shame in it, edmundo. we all despise something or somebody....but admit it. this is not about fairness or justice. u just can't stand them.

I only have one question. You say any new club can start in Serie C...this can't be true...i could found a totally new club in a tiny litle village which has never had a football club...surely this team has to start lower than Serie C ?

well actually that's exactly how it goes, gerd. serie c is the first step in professional football.... everything below that level is amateur football. so if u wanna found a new club and want it to be a professional club, that's where u will start from.

 

[DeFrenZ]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Well, but if you want to create a professional club you have to pay a lot of money... otherwise you start from third division i believe (i actually thought you always start from there...)

And, Ben, you always say only right things, it's amazing I agree with all but one thing (and I'll soon explain why). I'm only not convinced about how real calciopoli was... if what came out is real and what of the things that happened didn't come to our hears... you could say that it was pretty obiovus, but I must say that I actually began to really follow football was in 2007... so you get that I didn't live all that thievering climate but knowing how the things go in Italy, I wouldn't be too much surprised that Calciopoli was exaggerated only to take out from the games a superpower like Juventus for some times, or that the whole system is actually broken and they decided to take Juventus as a martyr to make believe that now it's all clean.

But after all I am so good that i try (and actually do) to believe that nothing is false and mistakes are actually mistakes. We would never know what REALLY goes behind the scenes, after all


And I must say that it's really impressive Serie A this season... 7 contenders for the 4th spot is really too much to handle! I just hope that Juventus (and they will probably, given the long 'pause' they conceded themselves ) keep the mentality 'till the end of the season assuring a CL spot... I wouldn't bet that even a 3rd spot is unreachable

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

well actually that's exactly how it goes, gerd. serie c is the first step in professional football.... everything below that level is amateur football. so if u wanna found a new club and want it to be a professional club, that's where u will start from.

That is a strange and unfair rule.
This is not about a particular club, but i will explain why i find this strange (and most Belgian football fans would agree with me).
Let's take the example of my favourite club RWDM. It used to be a big club in Belgium: once champions (albeit in 1975 when i was 13 years old), semi-finalist in a UEFA Cup..you can't find 20 clubs with that palmares in Belgium (and when you consider the fact that this club was the result of a merger, then it used to be an even bigger club, but that is a looong time ago). To cut a long story short: a pretty big club.
What happened to RWDM is pretty similar from what happened to Fiorentina (not quite the same, but very similar). The club had big financial problems and couldn't pay taxes and social security anymore and was punished for it. Now, for a very similar offense Fiorentina went to Serie C: that's two divisions lower. RWDM was demoted to the very lowest level of Belgian (amateur) football: 8 divisions lower...so this club still exists, but it was virtually murdered.

Am i jealous? No i'm not. I even like Fiorentina quite a lot.
Do i think my favourite club was punished too severe? As much as i hate to admit it: i think it was a just punishment. My favourite club did not respect laws that every Belgian citizen has to respect. They didn't respect that and were rightly punished.

I know that Italian laws are different from Belgian laws. But compare both clubs. There was a time that it would have been more logical for RWDM to play in Euro Cups than Fiorentina. Now Fiorentina is playing in the CL and RWDM is still in the basement of the Belgian league. There is something wrong there.

My club was rightly punbished because they suffered heavy losses, because too much money went to players' salaries...wait a minute...isn't that the same case for Real Madrid and for Chelsea (and they are only examples)...that is unfair competition.

So coming back to the discussion with edmundo. I still think he's wrong in thinking about a big conspiracy for Juventus and against other clubs. But if he's talking about the punishment of Juventus. He's maybe not that wrong, compare Juventus' punishment to that of my favourite club...or Fiorentina, or Real Madrid a couple of years ago when the Madrid municipality "bought" their training ground (my favourite club played in the centre of Brussels, if the Brussels' municipality would have bought the ground...all their financial would have been solved..but that is illegal in Belgium)

Now i know that a club like Juventus or Real Madrid is universially loved and when Juventus (or Madrid, or Fiorentina or whatever club)is punished, you punish all their fans...that's true...but isn't that the same for my favourite club (granted, a club with less fans)?

PS: i won't explain all this, it would make this post way too long. But the final verdict about my favourite club's future was sealed by...my wife. And i still think she was right. Oh and i know this story sound unbelievable, but it is the abslolute truth...

PPS: with this post i am not targeting one or another club. I'm only talking about unfair competition. You can say that the nature of sport is unfair competition and that's true...but only on the sports field and in the competition between the athletes, not where the rules are concerned. In a globalized society unfair competition of that kind is not good. I'm writing this paragraph because i once promised our friend Dominic that i would stop talking about calciopoli and Juventus. I hope he understands that this is about much more than Juventus. If he feels otherwise: i want to apologize.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

wow! 8 leagues? that's a lot of divisions!! it's not about fairness anyway, gerd, it's just that we don't have theese many divisions if we had 8 professional football division, then a new club would start from there.

But if he's talking about the punishment of Juventus. He's maybe not that wrong, compare Juventus' punishment to that of my favourite club...or Fiorentina

let me explain this again: fiorentina was never punished. i don't know about your club, Gerd.... coz if the managers also committed some administrative illicits, then they actually might have gotten punished..... but when a company (football clubs are companies) faces bankrupt, it doesn't get punished..... because IT DIES! how can u punished something that is already dead? how can u punish a company that no longer exists?. the bankrupt procedure is aimed to get all the company's belongings and sell em to satisfy the creditors.... it's a bit like taking a dead person's body and extracting all his vital organs....

what della valle did with fiorentina.... what de laurentis did with napoli.... was founding a new club (a new company) with a different business name and registered offices. that new club had no ties at all with the good old dead fiorentina.... fiorentina's history, their silverware their titles didn't belong to that new club..... even the training facilities of the good old fiorentina didn't belong to the new "florentia viola"..... once della valle created this new club, he had to buy back the name, the training grounds and everything else from the old fiorentina... it was some sort of a transplant... from the dead fiorentina, to florentia viola.
but della valle couldn't buy the right of fiorentina to play in serie a, as that not something u can sell..... so this new club (wich was now named fiorentina again) had to start over.
once again: this was not a punishment... it's just what naturally happens when u create a new club. so it has absolutely nothing to do with what happened to juve.

I'm only not convinced about how real calciopoli was... if what came out is real and what of the things that happened didn't come to our hears...

sadly it's all real.... and it's something even deeper than that.... u see, the magistrates could only prove the match fixing for the 2006 and the 2005 seasons...... but, even though we have no evidences..... everyone who followed the 97/98 season knows that inter were robbed that season too, as juventus was "helped" by some refs during that season aswell.

the saddest thing about this scum is that today many people hate juventus for what happened.... they don't focus their anger to the people who did this.... they hate juventus as if juventus were a "person".... the real responsible of what happened..... and the next stage (wich is even more stupid than the first) is moving from "hating the club" to "hating the club's fans and the most representative players".... it's pretty much like those idiots who "hate milan and its fans" just cos they can't stand berlusconi.

and that is actually the deepest wound those 2 bastards caused to juve. because, no matter how hard they hit u, if u have the will (and the money) u will always be back on your foot, sooner or later.... but cleaning your image, having people realise that juventus is nothing more than a club (and not a person, a criminal)... that takes a lot of time.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Belgium has only 2 professional divisions Ben.
My team was demoted to the very lowest division of amateur football under the Belgian FA.
I still don't see any difference with Fiorentina, but i admit that i don't really know what happened at Fiorentina.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

i see. so if what happened to your club is exactly what happened to fiorentina and napoli, then that should mean that in belgium u're not allowed to create a professional football club straight away, but u have to climb up the ranks of amateur football first.......

... that would be weird though. i actually tend to believe that your favourite club didn't face bankrupt. probably some managers screwed up big time (say, tax evasion or other administrative illicit), and then the club got punished from the federation by objective responsibility.

besides u talked about "demotion" wich wouldn't be the case, if we were talking about bankrupt..... and u also don't seem to imply that a new club was founded, with a new business name.... if that's not the case, then we're definitely not talking about a bankrupt case, but a punishment due to some sort of violation (wich would make this case different from fiorentina's and napoli's one).

on a different note; inter chelsea tonite... i'm so looking forward to watch this match. i was actually supposed to watch it live, as a friend of mine who works for a fancy firm in milano told he would have got free tickets from the firm..... but right when i was about to book the flight he phoned me to tell me all the tickets were already claimed.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

My team wasn't bankrupt Ben. It was about tax evasion and evasion of payments for social security of the personel (that's where my wife interfered).
Why did they evade? Because they were nearly bankrupt.Nearly...
You can create a professional football club, but that club has to begin at the base of the pyramid...every new club has to begin at the base of the pyramid (8 divisions down) and the fact that they are professional or not is irrelevant.

I too am looking forward to Inter-Chelsea. Inter is my son's favourite team (Eto'o !!!) and Chelsea is the my daughter's favourite team (Drogba)...personally i think it will be a very defensive match. I think Mourinho wants to have a 0-0 result and will try to counter at Stamford Bridge. I think it will be more a chess game than a football match...but that also might be big fun. I hope Chelsea win because today is my daughter's birthday, i obviously hope that both Eto'o and Drogba will score goals but i think it wil be a 0-0 match. Let's hope for an early goal.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

I was just talking about unfair competition.
Look what i found on the Guardian's website:http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/23/premier-league-clubs-europe-debt

So it seems the two "strongest" leagues (Premiership and la Liga) are also the most indebted. Lots of those Spanish or English clubs would not get a license of the Belgian FA.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

using the share price and the ebitda to prove the point that juve didn't suffer such a bad financial loss?....... nice try buddy
when i talked about their capitalization i wasn't referring to their "market capitalization"... wich is a completely different thing.... the market capitalization won't tell u anything about the true financial situation of a company.... it's just an indicator of the investors trust in the financial stability of the company.....
also the share price won't tell u anything about their losses... as it's effected by many other external factors......if tomorrow the agnelli family would come out with a public statement, saying they intend to sell, say, the 5% of their shares..... the price would sink instantly..... while if they would say they're gonna make some massive investments on the team next year, then in 2 hours the share price would go sky-high. besides a club like juventus, with a massive major shareholder and a very slight float, won't ever show massive increases or decreases in the share price.
..... so don't use market capitalization to prove your point..... u're not gonna fool me this way.

Then what other type of measurement do you suggest using, and what did you mean by the other "capitalization" ? Market Cap (which is essentially price x shares) is a standard simple way of examining the size of any company. For instance, if you look at Microsoft, it's market cap has gone from 232462 to 185398 so it has shrunk by about 20% in terms of size in the last four years, Google has gone from 61390 to 97398 so you have an almost 60% increase in the same time (all figures in Euros). There may be ownership issues at Juventus:

JUVENTUS FOOTBALL CLUB SPA ORD (all figures USD)
Holder Name-------------------Position--------Mkt Val-------% O/S
Exor SpA (Private Equity)-----120,934,166-----142,172,866---60
Libyan Investment Auth--------15,121,352------17,776,994----7.5
CLOMBO UGO--------------------4,000,000-------4,702,488-----1.99
Norges Bank Inv Mgmt----------606,684---------713,231-------0.3
Dimensional Fund Advs---------296,089---------348,089-------0.15
RMJ SGR pA--------------------95,000----------111,684-------0.05
TIAA-CREF Asset Mgmnt---------75,409----------88,652--------0.04
Eurizon Capital SA------------40,737----------47,891--------0.02
Tredje AP-fonden--------------21,400----------25,158--------0.01
Principal Glb Inv-------------18,388----------21,617--------0.01
Dimensional Fnd Advsr---------18,000----------21,161--------0.01
Grds of New Zealand Superan---17,586----------20,674--------0.01
KBC Asset Mgmnt (Belg)--------8,241-----------9,688---------<0.01
Vanguard Group, Inc-----------7,552-----------8,878---------<0.01
Acadian Asset Mgmnt-----------5,379-----------6,324---------<0.01
...

So Angelli's Exor Company owns 60% of all Juventus shares, which is a controlling interest, but if you have a look at the other holders, you see proper investment management firms, for instance - a New Zealand pension fund, Vanguard, Norges. Each of these is a reputable company and they have invested in Juventus to make a return, the return is generated by price (or market cap) increases. If they sell when the price has depreciated they will make a loss on their investment whereas if they sell when the price has increased they will have made a profit. The performance of their investment in Juventus will be a result of price changes in Juventus's stock. Other holdings vehicles or individuals also have over 50% of traded companies Compagnia Italpetroli own 66% of AS Roma, 66% of Lazio is owned by it's sister company Lazio Events SRL. When a company is traded on an open market it has to adhere to norms and rules governing share trading, so in my opinion using measures like market cap and price are valid for looking at a company's growth.

and it's also unappropriate and deceptive to use the ebitda the prove the point that juventus didn't undergo some major financial losses.... (wich makes me believe u did it on purpose ). in order to keep an acceptable ebitda margin juve had to sell cannavaro, thuram, zambrotta, ibrahimovic and vieira...... and, unlike all those others clubs u mentioned in your post, juventus didn't sell those players by its own will.... they didn't sell em coz "a cycle was over" or coz the players asked a move.... they HAD to sell em in order to cope with the upcoming lack of major incomes related to champions league, pay-tv rights, merchandising and so on.... they were forced to sell those players coz they couldn't afford to keep em all in serie b.

but if they would have decided not to sell them, then u would have read a completely different ebitda margin for 2007 and 2008 (and i'm pretty sure u're well aware of it).
and it's not just that either. the ebitda doesn't take into account the taxes (ebitda actually stands for "earning before interests, taxes, depreciation and ammortization") .... now about half of juventus 2006 ebitda margin comes from those massive players transfers.... wich means that the taxation data is much much higher than any other club in that list.... none of those clubs sold players for more than 60 millions euros that year in 2006.... so as soon as u put the taxation back into the equation..... well the figures change.... A LOT!

Is this totally true ? Sure they would have had to have sold some players (in the same way Liverpool will probably have to sell after missing out on the CL - if that happens this year), or the way Man Utd might have to sell due to impending debt. But for instance, with Ibrahimovic they tried to keep him, despite his big wages and the massive transfer fee he would generate. In the case of Ibrahimovic the decision seems utterly to be because the player wanted to avoid Serie B to the point where he was going to have legal action against the club. I'm not sure the Vieira transfer was a financial issue, I have his autobiography at home so will try and find the quote from him in the preface, I think he said something along the lines of not wanting to play Serie B at his age.

I agree that EBITDA is not a perfect measure for valuation and investibility, but it is good for comparisons, especially for profitability as it negates the effects of financing and accounting decisions. I included Net Sales and Gross Income, since these three are common top line items in financial reporting. Anyway here are the taxation figures (in Euros)

Year -------- Pretax Income -------- Total Income Taxes -------- Current Domestic Income Taxes -------- Deferred Domestic Income Taxes
06/2009 -------- 13.4 -------- 6.8 -------- 5.5 -------- 1.3
06/2008 -------- (9.4) -------- 11.4 -------- 4.3 -------- 7.0
06/2007 -------- 4.2 -------- 5.1 -------- 3.8 -------- 1.3
06/2006 -------- (31.6) -------- 4.9 -------- 7.0 -------- (2.1)
06/2005 -------- 6.4 -------- 9.4 -------- 6.6 -------- 2.8
06/2004 -------- (20.0) -------- (1.5) -------- 5.7 -------- (7.2)
06/2003 -------- 9.5 -------- 7.4 -------- 4.0 -------- 3.4
06/2002 -------- 16.6 -------- 10.5 -------- 2.4 -------- 8.1


As you can see the pre tax income, which I assume is the figure you refer to by "as soon as u put the taxation back into the equation..... well the figures change.... A LOT!" does change, it goes down to -31.6, but if you look in 2004, it was down at -20 anyway, so pre tax income has always fluctuated for Juventus in the last 10 years or so - even before the scandal. Also as you can see the total income tax for 2006 is 4.9, which is less than 9.4 from the year before. Even then Juventus were able to deferr their tax and spread the payment of it back over the next few years, so in fact the taxation is not of huge significance.

u say that u never read how that massive loss people talks about was calculated..... well of course u didn't, as no one writes a balance sheet including incomes that didn't actually came..... but if u wanna get an idea, just take a look at any other top flight club figures, and pay attentions to the incomes related to tv-rights, sponsorships, champion's league incomes and merchandising.... that what juve lost... it doesn't take an analist to figure out what kind of numbers we're talking about.

As a publicly traded company Juventus are legally forced to publish full financial reports such as balance sheets, income statements, etc. These have to adhere to standard accounting principles and so all items should be present. You can use 2005 figures to judge any income that Juventus should have had for champions league merchandising and sponsorship rights. Their position in 200, financially, can be used as a guide, since in 2004-5 they were Serie A winners (although they were later stripped of this in 2006, that would not have impacted on 2005 financial reporting) and were in the Champions League for the 2005-6 season. As such any financial losses should be reflected in financial reports from 2005 (pre scandal) to 2007 (post scandal).

yeah, but clubs usually do it by their own decision.... and they do it coz they obviously consider it a "step up".... that's absolutely not the case here (wich makes that birmingham and man city comparison absolutely wrong and unappropriate).

That may be the case with those two, but what about West Ham ? After the Icelandic take-over went wrong, the club were mooted for sale and had to change their board of directors. Eggert Magnusson was no longer a viable director of West Ham, yet the club have since survived and have new owners.

so let's say the truth: u can't stand the fact that juventus is still "alive" as a club... that's the reason of your hatred..... and that's probably also the reason why u seem to notice just the ref's calls wich go in juventus favour and not the ones that go in napoli, palermo, inter, milan favour.

This is wild conjecture on your part. I don't wish to see Juventus "dead", all I think is that appropriate punishment should have occured, and since that has not, there will always be suspicion over the favourable calls they have had. The facts are they were not punished for the scandals in the late 1990s, and the calciopoli punishment was not of significant severity. So long as justice has only been partially done there will always be massive doubts about this legitimacy.

So coming back to the discussion with edmundo. I still think he's wrong in thinking about a big conspiracy for Juventus and against other clubs. But if he's talking about the punishment of Juventus. He's maybe not that wrong, compare Juventus' punishment to that of my favourite club...or Fiorentina, or Real Madrid a couple of years ago when the Madrid municipality "bought" their training ground (my favourite club played in the centre of Brussels, if the Brussels' municipality would have bought the ground...all their financial would have been solved..but that is illegal in Belgium)

This is the crux of the matter, you can say that Fiorentina, Napoli and RDWM were liqidated and re-formed, and this is different to clubs like Juventus who were caught in a scandal. To my mind, but types of clubs committed errors / crimes, Fiorentina, Napoli and RDWM made accounting and financial management errors. They were punished (and maybe punishment is not the exact word to use, but the consequences were negative) by demotion to low leagues. Now, the punishment was a result of financial proceedures, but there was a possibility that the regional FA could have stepped in to prevent such a substantial demotion (e.g. forwarding of league payments, granting conditional licences, deferring monies owed by clubs) - it would have been complicated but these clubs could have been "managed" through their problems. I'm not saying this should have happened, just that such a possibility existed. If you compare this with Juventus (and you could even say Anderlecht too who were embroiled in a match fixing case, but this only came to light many years after the event, so it is a more complex issue) the FIGC did not demote them to the same level as Fiorentina and Napoli found themselves in. So it seems that financial errors are punished more than match/fixing ref scandals.

The whole point is you have to punish the latter with a significant punishment, match fixing, more than so many other scandals, damages the whole structure of the game, it means what we, the fans, are watching in the stadium or on tv is no more than a pre-ordained farce.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Then what other type of measurement do you suggest using, and what did you mean by the other "capitalization" ? Market Cap (which is essentially price x shares) is a standard simple way of examining the size of any company.

yeah, now that i think about it, in english capitalization equals "market cap", while in italian the word "capitalizzazione" has a much more all around meaning.
well the problem with market cap is that, being tied to stock valutation, the value is effected by external factors... let me make an example. on today's italians newspapers first page there's the news about the fastweb scandal (fastweb is an italian telecom wich seems to be involved in a money-laundering scandal)..... well as soon as the word spread out, fastweb shares price sinked..... but the change in the share price isn't determined by a financial issue.... it was the the scandal wich scared the investors and had an effect on the market cap.
besides usually the smaller is the float, the more unreliable is the market cap to measure the true financial situation of a company (although that might be considered a bit of a generalization)... and from that chart u posted u can clearely see the float is pretty small (as exor surely doesn't sell).
the italian "counterpart" of the ebitda is the mol (margine operativo lordo).... people tend to believe mol and abitda are exactly the same thing, but they are actually slightly different.

but then again, also the mol wouldn't be really appropriate coz it doesn't take into account amortizations and allowances.... and i'm sure juventus financial office found some slick way to amotize the loss in many financial years, as they clearely did for the taxes. (on this concern, that taxes chart u posted clearely proves they were deffered and spread.... but that doesn't make them disappear of course... those taxes are still to pay... it's just more complicated to spot the exact amount.). the best way would probably be to study each and every entry from their balance sheets over the last 4 years (and the next, say, 4 years). wich would be a massive effort.

You can use 2005 figures to judge any income that Juventus should have had for champions league merchandising and sponsorship rights.

yeah that would be a good way. but we should obviously "boost" the figures, to take into account inflation... and that would made the whole calculation quite unreliable, as we can't tell how much we should raise the entries

This is wild conjecture on your part. I don't wish to see Juventus "dead", all I think is that appropriate punishment should have occured, and since that has not, there will always be suspicion over the favourable calls they have had. The facts are they were not punished for the scandals in the late 1990s, and the calciopoli punishment was not of significant severity. So long as justice has only been partially done there will always be massive doubts about this legitimacy.

you're right, it was just a guess , and i apologise for that. u got to admit though, the fact that u feel that such a serious punishment was still not enough, might suggest u hold some sort of a grudge.
but u're right, i've no right to question your motives.... in the end it's all about our personal valutation of the punishment.... u think it wasn't serious enough, while i do. it's quite a subjective matter, so there's not much to debate about it.

my main point is: before calciopoli juventus was top flight team. cannavaro was pretty much on his peak.... zambrotta was the best right back in the world... vieira was still healthy.... they had such a fantastic team that del piero was often benched, as they had ibra and trezeguet as starters.... they had one of the very best coaches in the world (capello) and a huge grip on the eastern market. in 2 months they lost all of it, were sent in serie b, had their reputation completely compromised (with obvious reflections on their marketing power and their tv rights contractual leverage)...
u say the team was not destroyed coz buffon, camoranesi, nedved, trezeguet and del piero stayed.... but let me make an example... let's take chelsea for instance and deprive it of the same players juve lost.... that would mean drogba (ibra) essien (vieira) carvalho (cannavaro) terry (thuram) cole (zambrotta.... i know cole is a leftback, but their rightback is nowhere near as good as zambrotta was those days)....
do u still believe their team wasn't dismantled?

it's 4 years now..... and we will still have to wait for many years to see the real juve back, to see a club which can be considered as a serious title contender on both the domestic and the european front. and it's gonna take even more time to rebuild their reputation and regain their marketing leverage on foreign markets.

i'd say that's hard enough..... especially when u consider how unfair the whole concept of objective responsibility is.... and even more when u take into account the fact that the real responsibles were kicked out.

So it seems the two "strongest" leagues (Premiership and la Liga) are also the most indebted. Lots of those Spanish or English clubs would not get a license of the Belgian FA.

well that's not much of a surprise gerd, is it? i don't think we will see this trend change until some "giant" will implode...... which apparently might be happening any time now

 

[Dominic]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

once again edmundo, don't take this as a personal attack, as that's not the case. 2 seasons ago dominic was complaining about all those questionable calls inter was getting away with.... so i tried to help him see the situation from a wider perspective... and he actually realised that there was nothing dirty behind those quiestionable calls and that moratti wasn't that criminal mastermind he might have thought he was at first glance....... now i'm doing the same with u by telling u to get real!
i could easily prove all your suspicions wrong by letting u consider all the "referee favours" napoli and palermo (4th place contender aswell) got in the past 5 weeks.
that alone should be enough to bring u back to reality.

How young and foolish I was then .

Gerd, no harm done! Dont let me be an inhibiting factor on what you have to say.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Patoooooooooo!!!! Man... we did not deserve to win tonight. Fiorentina were clearly the better team, but we sneaked 2 goals in, both created by Ronaldinho! -4!

 

[Dominic]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Story of Fiorentina's season..

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Man... so much happening here now! great stuff! Soo much to read. Just caught up. Awesome!

p.s. Spalletti is gone to Zenit! I never heard about that until now! and don't remember it being mentioned here (maybe I missed it). Means he's not on the market anymore if any clubs were to sack their coach and he must be earning a nice paycheque in St. Petersburg.