Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Stef, when i read Ben's posts he always says Italian clubs don't care at all about the Euro League. I assume he knows what he's saying...

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I'm not completely disagreeing with Ben, I just think that it's a bit too easy to say that we're poor in Europe because we don't care after several years of mediocre/poor performances. For some clubs, its clear that they put no effort into it, but for the majority, I really do feel that they care but with the wrong mentality, which I explained before.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

And Mourinho really gets the players attached to him. He seems the master of that.

yep. he's really good at that. he actually has his players wanting to play and win for him, wich for a coach is an extraordinary achievement.

So you've finally given in to Mourinho, Ben.

it's not about give in, as i never really wanted "not to like mourinho". it's just that, when mourinho came in italy, he was praised by english media as some sort of a genius. that was ridiculous then, as it is today. having followed mourinho at chelsea, i knew he was hugely overrated by english media... then, once he came in italy, i realised that, speaking of tactics, he was even poorer than i thought..... but in the following 2 seasons in inter, i also got to know (and appreciate) mourinho's strenghts (as much as his weaknesses).
today i like and respect mourinho more than i did when he came in italy.... but i wouldn't say i "gave in"... as i'm actually happy mourinho had me changing my mind about him
however i still disagree (strongly) with the general opinion about mourinho. he's absolutely not a top class coach (like i said many times, being a top class coach means having "the total package", and josè has just too many weaknesses to be labelled "top class")...... but now i know josè is a great choice for a top club (wich is a completely different thing from being a top class coach).

I'm getting rather fed up with this haughty attitude. I understand its sometimes an issue of money but if you look at the teams their up against, it really shouldn't be that much bother. Fine, let them care. let Germany leap frog us and get that 4th UCL spot. Inter sure as hell won't save serie a like last season (or can they??).

it's not about having a haughty attitude mate (exactly as it's not about having that "insular" behaviour u're referring Gerd). on the contrary, it's about being humble and realising u can't compete in both the league and the european competition with the funds u have. u gotta make a choice. and since the league position is much more "profitable" than a good run in europa league, the choice is pretty simple.

I just think that it's a bit too easy to say that we're poor in Europe because we don't care after several years of mediocre/poor performances. For some clubs, its clear that they put no effort into it, but for the majority, I really do feel that they care but with the wrong mentality, which I explained before......
....I think it's a bit of a weak argument to simply say Italian teams don't care - Napoli have always cared for the Europa League, De Laurentis has always banged on about it. Genoa, in the past, would also play full line ups

i gotta disagree on that stef. it's not like "some clubs" don't put any effort into it. there's not a single club which puts any effort into europa league. and don't let club presidents fool u with their statements.... yeah de laurentis said napoli cares about europa league.... but he's just saying what he's supposed to say. napoli's performances in europa league tell a completely different story.
let's just take a look at a few results from this europa league campaign, shall we?
juve - salisburgo 1-1
salisburgo - juve 0-0
napoli - utrecht 0-0
steaua - napoli 3-3 (napoli didn't bother creating a single scoring chance till the last 14 minutes of the game... then, when they realised it was the 75th minute and they were loosing 3-0, they started playing football and scored 3 times in 14 minutes)
samp - metalist 0-0
metalist - samp 2-1
palermo - lausanne 1-0 (lausanne plays in swiss 2nd division!!!! and yet we didn't had a single shot on goal till the 79th minute of the game!!!... against a swiss serie b club!!!!)

and as for genoa, it's the same story. saying they did care about europa league isn't really true. do u remember the 3-0 loss against lille (lille is a good team, but sure an average genoa could have done much better than that)..... and how about the 0-0 draw against levski sofia; they had just about 3 starters in their lineup in that match, if i remember well.

slavia prague, metalist, lausanne, salzburg, utrecht.... teams like napoli, samp, genoa, palermo... they don't need great offensive displays or fancy offensive mentality to beat theese kinda teams...... they just had to play...even a poor league performance would be enough to beat salzburg or a swiss 2nd division team..... the point is in europa league our performances are beyond "poor".... we just don't play at all.... because we consider europa league as a waste of energy and nothing more.
i still remember the post Gerd wrote a few years ago after a standard liegi- samp uefa cup matchup..... samp was litterally outplayed by standard, so Gerd came in the serie a thread and asked "what happened last night? how can a team wich is doing so well in serie a be completely torn apart by standard liegi?".

when palermo played against cska 2 weeks ago we had only 4 starters in our lineup. samp yesterday had lots of backups too (cacciatore, volta, pozzi, marilungo, da costa).
and even when italian teams lineup their starting formation, those starters are more focused on not wasting too many energies than on winning the game. and when u enter the pitch with that mentality ("i gotta save my energies for sunday and the league game"), then there's no way u're gonna have a decent performance.
palermo displayed many starters against lausanne (allow me to repeat, a swiss 2nd division team!!) and yet we created 2 scoring chances in the entire game!!!!
napoli too lined up their starters against liverpool.... yet have u seen how they played in both legs?.... i mean the first match (the one in napoli) was the poorest napoli performance i've seen in years! and yesterday they weren't much more bothered.

it's not about coaches (to be honest if there's a department where serie a really stands up in europe that's the coaching department) and it's not about mentality... it's something much more simple.
palermo has 21 players in his roster.
napoli has a 22 players squad.
genoa, udinese, samp, those clubs had even smaller squads in the last few years.

u can't realistically expect to compete in both serie a and europa league with such a short squad. and an europa league succesful campaign wouldn't provide u enough money to allow u to enlarge your squad by signing more players (besides signing more players specifically to have a good run in europa league is a huge risk).

allow me to quote myself. that's something i wrote last year, when rfu asked me about the reason of the lack of interest in europa league by italian clubs.

italian football clubs presidents are quite cynical (or practical, if u prefere). they don't give a damn about prestige, they just care about their balance sheets (and tbf, i agree with em).
the problem is the way the uefa cup is conceived.... it doesn't gather enough media attention..... wich means less sponsor money and less tv rights related money.
so it turns out that a uefa cup campaign doesn't bring money to a club... actually it drains money. all the tv rights money and match prizes are wasted in bonuses for the players.

plus facing a serious uefa cup campaign implies lots of expenses and problems. u need to enlarge your roster to guarrantee some rotation, wich means new signings and new contracts..
and such a deep roster can cause big issues. coz if u don't reach the final phase of the cup, those new signings will waste most of their season on the bench, complaining about the lack of playtime and creating even more troubles in the dressing room. this brings the club to sell those players as soon as possible (to save at least some of the contract-related money and to make things easier for the coach)....and your urge to sell gives leverage to whoever wanna buy those players (who will likely make a bargain).

long story short, a uefa cup campaign becomes a problem, not an achievement. and that's why many italian club presidents (like zamparini or spinelli) in the last few years admitted they'd rather reach a 7th spot and miss the uefa cup, than finish the season in the 6th place and join the european competition.
some other presidents won't have the guts to openly admit it, but that's what every serie a club president thinks about uefa cup

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

it's not about coaches (to be honest if there's a department where serie a really stands up in europe that's the coaching department) and it's not about mentality... it's something much more simple.
palermo has 21 players in his roster.
napoli has a 22 players squad.
genoa, udinese, samp, those clubs had even smaller squads in the last few years.

u can't realistically expect to compete in both serie a and europa league with such a short squad. and an europa league succesful campaign wouldn't provide u enough money to allow u to enlarge your squad by signing more players (besides signing more players specifically to have a good run in europa league is a huge risk).

So what, CSKA Moscow have a squad of 20, PSG 21, Porto 22, Napoli and Jugay have more players than this...ok maybe argue serie a is much more difficult league so players are more drained, but in any case, inter has a squad of 28, the majority of whom don't even play, those who do are hugely injury prone or playing sub-par, yet we're competing in the world club cup next month... My point is you just have to get on with it. And really, there's no excuse for serie a's current failings in europe. This is group stage stuff versus randoms. A part of me hopes serie a gets embarrassed so we can reel in everyone and evaluate.

 

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Juventus' injury problems at the moment are astounding.

 

[Andri92]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

The same every single season.

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Juventus' injury problems at the moment are astounding.

worse than inters? we don't even have a midfielder. And at least you're available players are performing. Shouldn't even be complaining, your fixture list this season is a piece of piss. We have world club cup next month... so fucked

 

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

worse than inters? we don't even have a midfielder. And at least you're available players are performing. Shouldn't even be complaining, your fixture list this season is a piece of piss. We have world club cup next month... so fucked

I've been surprised that despite having such a big squad, they've had to field the likes of Sorensen, Giandonato and frozen-out players like Grosso and Salihamidzic.

Inter's is shocking as well, compared to last season where they had very few, maybe something to do with the change to Benitez's training methods?

 

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Oh and there's something I forgot to post about a couple of weeks ago. Apparently there's been a mini-skirt ban somewhere south of Naples, I think it was.

You know anything about this, Ben?

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I've read that too, it was only in one (beach) city. But yes, this is very serious.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

In this thread there is very often discussion about manager/coaches.
What is a great coach, what is a good coach...
I found this:
http://equaliserfootball.com/manager-series/

It's only a list. And lists are subjective. But it's an interesting read for different reasons (if only for the reason that i had nerver heard of the number one coach in that list).

It's not strictly about Italian football, but in the list there are some people who managed Italian teams (Herrera, Sacchi, Trappatoni, Mourinho and Bianchi if i remember well)...it might be interesting to discuss and if not...like i said it's an interesting read.

Oh and Ben: Mourinho is there...

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

a mini skirt ban?? there's definitely no such thing... at least not in palermo or napoli. u can easily see girls in bikini at palermo stadium in september and may (when people start going to the beach), nevermind miniskirts.
i've never heard of a "dress code" in an italian stadium. anyone here knows wich club abou and gerd are referring to?

So what, CSKA Moscow have a squad of 20, PSG 21, Porto 22.......
.....inter has a squad of 28......

well i don't think i need to explain u why europa league is much more important for french or portuguese or eastern european clubs than it is for italian clubs. those clubs have very valid reasons to give their 100% in europa league (even if that means snubbing a bit their domestic leagues).
and as for inter..... a 28 players squad is a huuge squad mate!! that's 1\3 more than palermo for instance. i mean, just look at inter injury situation right now... with all the injuries u have to deal with right now, rafa can still line up a pretty competitive team.... if palermo would have to face the same situation, rossi would have to fill the starting line up with kids coming from the youth team!!!
and it's not just a matter of quantity either... it's also about quality. if lucio or samuel get injured, then cordoba comes off the bench...... palermo's first cb backup is GOIAN!!!! and if both cbs get injured or disqualified (God forbid) then we have to line up migliaccio (a midfielder) in the defensive line.
serie a midclass clubs have great starting formations.... but most of em don't even have a "b team"..... and even those few clubs which actually have enough backups to line up a completely different starting 11... well those backups are absolutely not comparable to a their own starters or to a top class club's backups.

.....My point is you just have to get on with it.

we HAVE to get on with it???? why? why do we have to honour and value this competition??? i mean, clearely uefa itself doesn't care about europa league. in the last 10 years uefa has done little to none effort to actually "value" the competition, they never invested on europa league..... and the same applies to sponsors and tv broadcasters which keep snubbing this competition even more than uefa itself... (just to give u an idea, a few weeks ago i wrote in here the huge load of football u get from the sky italian package.... not only the top leagues, but even portuguese, russian, dutch leagues, brasilerao, argentinian leagues and the libertadores....... with a sky subscription u get all the football u can possibly watch......... bar europa league. this cup is so worthless sky didn't even buy the tv rights).

so why, if even tv broadcasters, sponsors and uefa itself don't care about europa league....... why should WE care????
for the glory? italian midclass clubs can't afford to chase glory just for the sake of it... u don't pay contracts with glory. top clubs (and english midclass clubs) can afford to chase glory..... not us...... we don't have a sugar daddy, or a huge international private equity fund, ready to "inject" dozens of millions each and every year. we don't have a moratti who refunds the club with 100 millions every summer to clean the overdraft..... our clubs must operate like every other company in the world, we need to sustain ourselves economically with our results related incomes.
so we can't commit ourselves to a competition whose prizes and related incomes don't even cover for the players' bonuses!!!

let's talk a bit about numbers, shall we? how much does europa league pays off?
well u get 3.6 millions for the group stage qualification, 140k euros for each draw (140k for each win). then u get 300k if u reach the eight-finals, 400K if u reach the quarters-finals, 700k for the semifinals and 2 millions for the final. and there's also a limit to the total bonus u can get from uefa (u can't get more than 7 millions overall)
a recent research established that a europa league succesful campaign (getting to the final and winning the whole thing) brings to a club 12 millions euros!!!!

that's how much uefa invests in europa league!!! that's how much they care about europa league..... wanna know about the champions league prizes? well, just getting to the round stages gives u around 7 millions euros. then it's 3 millions for the eight-finals, 4 millions for the semifinals and 9 millions for the finals.
then u also have to add the loads of millions the club get from sponsorhips and tv rights (like i said, sponsors and tv broadcasters don't care at all about europa league).
the same research i mentioned before established that a champions league victory brings to a club around 70 millions euros!!!!
70 millions euros vs 12 millions euros! with those 12 millions euros u couldn't even cover the players' contracts bonuses..... and mind u those 12 millions are only for the winner.

just to put thins in the right perspective, the incomes of the games versus milan, juve and inter alone will guarrantee palermo more money than a europa league semifinal!!!

so mate, why on earth should we "get on with it"? why should we commit ourselves to such a tough competition (let me remind u that europa league fixtures are on thursday and not in the middle of the week, as it happens for the champions league... wich makes things a lot more complicated for us).... why should we bother... when even uefa itself clearely doesn't bother about the competition???

clubs like cska or porto or psg (just to mention the clubs u referred to) actually have some reasons to bother. ligue un, russian league and liga sagres don't have the same visibility of serie a. therefore europa league is a great stage to showcase their valuable players and make some profits..... but that doesn't apply to serie a.

u might say, "hey but what about german clubs then? they care a lot about europa league too". but bundi is a completely different league from serie a.
bundesliga is an 18 clubs league....... that means german clubs play 4 matches less than serie a clubs. now, 4 matches might not seem such a big deal... but they are..... 4 matches less equals to 1 entire month of football!!! 4 matches almost equal to an entire europa league group stage..... that's an huge advantage.
and there's more. bundesliga begins earlier than serie a (for wheather related reasons), wich means their schedule is a lot less hectic than ours..... and they have the longest winter pause.... almost an entire month to rest... in the middle of the season. an entire month to dedicate to athletic preparation (it's almost like splitting the season in 2). that's another huge advantage.
so u will easily understand why for german clubs is a lot easier to actually commit themselves to europa league........
and also german clubs have more room for expenses (therefore to commit themselves also from a financial point of view) as they don't have to deal with some expenses italian clubs have to face (like the stadium rent, wich costs to palermo each season more than we could possibily get from an europa league final).

i think that's enough reasons to "don't give a f**k" about europa league.
this competition is very badly conceived. the whole format is conceived only to bring more money to uefa itself and to drain money from the clubs.
in terms of financial commitment it would require the clubs to spend more than what they could possibly earn from a victory.
in terms of athletic commitment, it requires a huge effort, even harder than the champions league effort (like i said europa league fixtures are on thursday) to clubs with less resources than the ones who play in champions league.
and finally it inevitably decreases the quality of the football played in the domestic leagues, as every club who has to play in europa league will never be able to deliver at its best (and palermo is the perfect example of what i'm talking about).

edit:
just read your post Gerd.... but i'm out of time now. gonna comment later

 

[Jumbo_]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Gasperini is the first managerial casualty of the season then. That took some time, especially compared to last season!

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Seems kind of logical that Genoa has problems if you see how many new players they have the last seasons.
I'm not sure if Gasperini is to blame. But in those cases it's always the coach who is the first victim. And if i'm not wrong, some people here consider Gasperini an outstanding coach. So maybe not the best move for Genoa to sack him.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Gasperini is the first managerial casualty of the season then. That took some time, especially compared to last season!

indeed. that's a guinness for a "coach-eating" league like serie a.

I'm not sure if Gasperini is to blame. But in those cases it's always the coach who is the first victim. And if i'm not wrong, some people here consider Gasperini an outstanding coach. So maybe not the best move for Genoa to sack him.

exactly. he certainly is a fantastic coach.... top club material... for sure.
i feel for gasperini, as he had very little responsibility on genoa's results so far....like gerd pointed out, u can't change the squad each and every season and expect the coach to turn his players into a team in such a short time..... especially when your coach likes to give his very personal football identity to his teams (like gaspa).
besides it's not like genoa were doing that bad! they have 11 points..... (just 3 less than palermo). if they would have won yesterday, now palermo would be exactly where genoa is and viceversa.
however he won't stay without a job for long... he's just too good to remain unemployed.
good news is ballardini is back in serie a. great coach (despite what edmundo might think ).

Gerd i took a look at that link. we can't very well question people's opinion... especially on such a subjective topic. but there's something i don't really like about that list: u can't really understand what's in the writer's mind. what does he values in a coach.

making a list of "the greatest coaches" is pretty much like making a list of the greatests players.... both "coach" and "player" are too wide genres. u can't compare a defender to a midfielder or a striker.
the same way, when talking about "the greatest coaches" u should clarify what's your benchmark, what's your criterium.
for instance if u're referring to "the greatest innovators of the game", those who contributed to the evolution of the game with original ideas.... then sacchi, chapman, lobanovsky, michels, pozzo, they certainly deserve to be in that list..... but sure u can't put in that list the likes of trapattoni, mourinho, rehagel or bianchi (to be fair bianchi shouldn't be in any list at all!!!!)
if u're referring to the most succesful coaches instead, ferguson and trap should be there, aswell as herrera (not to mention capello and lippi!!!!).... but in such a list there would be no place for sacchi or pozzo.

so it all sounds kinda random.
however the individual analisys of the coaches seems great. i've only checked out a few of coaches in that list (sacchi, trap, pozzo, chapman and herrera), but i can tell u everything he wrote about them is pretty much spot on, wich is really impressive .

plus, even though personal opinions aren't questionable, u simply CANNOT mention bianchi, rehagel and roux, and overlook coaches like kovacs, capello, hitzfeld, lippi liedholm and (and i really hate to say this ...) van gaal.
there's no room for personal opinions here. theese coaches just come first than some of the names in that list, regardless the criterium u chose.
and it's not even a matter of personal likes. i mean, i absolutely can't stand van gaal, but it would be just unfair to let my personal opinion on the man effect my judgement and bring me to say bianchi is a better coach (!).

 

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

a mini skirt ban?? there's definitely no such thing... at least not in palermo or napoli. u can easily see girls in bikini at palermo stadium in september and may (when people start going to the beach), nevermind miniskirts.
i've never heard of a "dress code" in an italian stadium. anyone here knows wich club abou and gerd are referring to?

Well apparently the mayor of Castellammare di Stabia was considering a mini skirt ban and low hung jeans ban or something. Not really important but it made me grin when I first read it.

Why the dislike for van Gaal?

 

[Dominic]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

hey ben, you are in amsterdam this month, right?

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I haven't read all of them neither Ben.
But i did read Bianchi's because i didn't know him, suspected that he could be Argentinian (i have a very soft spot for Argentinian football) and my first reaction was that this guy has a fantastic track record in South America, he's won loads of silverware and to win the Coppa America with both a top team (Boca) and a "litle" team (Velez Sarsfield) to me is a huge achievement. Apparently he was very bad at Roma (but isn't Roma an extremely different club???).
I totally agree that Trappatoni and (maybe) Mourinho should not be in that list. As for Van Gaal, i rate him very, very high. To me he is a much better coach than Michels. I've read a book about Johan Cruijf were the writer (Hollands Gianni Brera) claims that the tactical genius of Ajax was not Michels but Cruijf...oh and if Michels is in the list, then Kovacs (his successor with Ajax) should also be in it.
Two other all time greats who have links with Belgium: Raymond Goethals (but he was also capable of fraud both with Standard and Marseille) and (certainly) Ernst Happel. Ernst Happel was an Austrian who led Feyenoord to a ECI win and modest Club Brugge to a ECI final where they had the misfortune to play in the final against Liverpool at Wembley with less than a reserve team (lots of injuries for all their key players, the starting eleven of that final consists of players even scarcely known here in Belgium). In 1978 Happel reached the WC final with Holland. Happel and Goethals introduced the off-side tactics in Belgian football. Our national team was (for a litle country) very succesfull with it during the '80's. To me Ernst Happel definitely is among the 3 best coaches ever.

Guy Roux should not be in that list...

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Why the dislike for van Gaal?

i just don't like the man. there are 2 kinds of arrogants in this world imo. some people are arrogant in a childish and kinda charming way (say, mancini and mourinho)... some other people instead are properly "arrogant" (obtuse, not open to any sort of dialogue, hieratics)... lippi and van gaal belong to this second category of arrogant people.
both arrogant-types are very confrontational, but i tend to tolerate the mourinhos and the mancinis much more than the lippis and the van gaals. but like i said, that just concern the person, not the professional\coaching aspect.

hey ben, you are in amsterdam this month, right?

u got a pm, buddy.

I've read a book about Johan Cruijf were the writer (Hollands Gianni Brera) claims that the tactical genius of Ajax was not Michels but Cruijf.

yeah i read that story many times too gerd..... and i'll never buy it.
first of, michels developed his football even before crujff made his debut into the first squad. officially crujff joined the first squad 1 year before rinus arrival, but he was a 17 years old youngster, hardly the most influential player in that dressing room.
michels worked first with the "senators" of that team the "mature" starters..... then, when he realised that those players were too "mature" to follow and apply his "crazy" ideas, he realised it would have been easier to work on the new generation, the kids of that team (crujff, haan, resenbrink, krol, neeskens, surbier etc...).
young minds are more easily "adaptable", are easier to "mold" and will follow u with more enthusiasm and partecipation...... enthusiasm and partecipation were key factors in michels football.
crujff had an outstanding "football brain", and he certainly had a major role in the application of michels' football....... but the development of that team, the authorship of total football must be entirely credited to michels.... certainly not to a 17 years old kid who was making his first steps in professional football.

and there's another very valid argument to confutate that theory (crujff being the real father of total football). when crujff became a coach he proved he was a very poor tactician. sure he won a lot, with both ajax and barca......but that doesn't imply he was a good tactician. mourinho too has won a lot, yet he's very poor speaking of tactics.
actually mourinho and crujff were very similar as coaches. both have a great ability in team-building. both have a very personal and peculiar style... a style wich is not tied to a specific system or formation.... but to an idea. both applied that idea wherever they coached.... and succeded.
but both of them have a very poor match-reading ability (match-reading is the essence of being a good tactician).

so there's just no way crujff was the real mastermind behind total football.
the thing is football media are and will always be attracted by huge characters. so whenever a not very charismatic coach comes up with something revolutionary, media will always try to give somene else the authorship of those visionary ideas..... that happened to boskov aswell.... jornalist just couldn't believe boskov was the mind behind that amazing sampdoria... so they tried to give mancini credit for that team. they said about mancini exactly what they said about crujff... and they overlooked boskov exactly as they overlooked michels. that's just a wrong critical approach imo... and it's also very unfair.
the difference is, being mancini a much classier man than crujff, he always denied he was the real mastermind behind boskov's sampdoria (while crujff let people believe he was the real "inventor" of total football).

I totally agree that Trappatoni and (maybe) Mourinho should not be in that list.

that's not what i meant mate. trapattoni would probably be in my personal "greatest coaches ever" list (not mourinho though).
what i meant to say is.... before saying who were the greatests, the author of that (very interesting) research u posted should have established a parametric standard, a criterium...... the best coaches.... ok, but in what sense???? from which perspective???
because there are many different criteria u can assume on this matter.
do u mean the most influential coaches for the history of the game? well in that sense coaches like michels, sacchi, chapman, lobanovsky, liedholm they would certainly deserve to be mentioned in that list..... while other great coaches like capello, lippi, kovacs, van gaal, trapattoni shouldn't be in that list.
but u can also use others criteria.... as "the most succesful coaches".... in that case, michels and sacchi shouldn't be mentioned, while coaches like trapattoni or capello and kovacs himself should.

so, in the end, it's all about wich criterium, wich parameter u wanna use. and that's what i don't like in that list. it randomly mixes up great coaches..... u might say "maybe he wanted to consider the greatest all around coaches".... but in that case it would be just wrong to mention bianchi and forget capello kovacs and lippi.

i had a very long conversation about sacchi with rfu a few months ago.... at the end i eventually told him i wouldn't consider sacchi as one of the greatest coaches ever.
because even though sacchi completely revolutionized the game.... even though the football that we play all over the world today is, by all means, "sacchi's football".... even though sacchi, along with michels and chapman developed and almost "created" the game of football...... even if that's undeyable..... coaching isn't about developing the game or having great visionary ideas..... coaching is about winning games. eventually it all comes down to this.

a club doesn't hire u to "change the game".... a club hires u to win, to deliver. so the greatest coach isn't the one with the most brilliant ideas, but the one who is able to "deliver" in the most different environments and conditions.
i told rfu i consider capello a greater coach than sacchi himself..... capello didn't bring anything new to the game, he didn't invent anything, he has pretty much no place in the "history of the game" (while sacchi is along with michels and chapman, one of the fathers of the game)..... but he is without a doubt the most sucessful coach in the history of the game. he's the most adaptable, the most versatile. he has coached (and succeded) everywhere. he succeded with great teams and underdogs, he displayed every possible tactical variant:a 3 men defensive line and a 4 men defensive setup, man marking and zone coverage.... he succeded with very creative midfields (with a regista) but also with muscular midfield... he played an highly offensive football and a very conservative football..... he has tried and displayed every kind of football known to men.... and he always delivered.
there's only one trait d'union in capello's teams, one fil rouge: balance. he has an unmatched ability in finding the right balance....he's not a football teacher (like wenger, zeman or van gaal), he doesn't improve the individual quality of the players..... but afterall that's not a coach's main duty. what he does is having the players (no matter how good they are) playing the best football they can (as a team). and that's the most important duty for a coach. he could take a bunch of amateurs who never played football together and have them playing "professional level" football in less than 3 months. and he reads the game like a master.

so, in my personal greatest coaches list, people like capello kovacs and trap would come even before Gods like sacchi or michels.
they were not genius like sacchi or michels.... but they were much more versatile and succesful than them.
but like i said, it all comes down to the criteria u decide to pick. infact, if u would ask me who were (not the greatest coaches but) the most important coaches in history, then i would certainly pick sacchi, michels and chapman and drop capello or trap.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Interesting response Ben.
I see what you mean.
I also think that the man who made that list was more thinking in terms of changing the game than in terms of success.
And yes, althoug i also prefer the coaches who changed the game, all a coach needs to do is win, no matter how (that's one of football's problems IMO). So if you consider success then that list would have other names on it...

Generally people tend to over-estimate the achievements or the importance of revolutionary, new things. Allow me an example in music. Tom Waits is one of my all-time heroes. If you ask a journalist what is best album ever is. This jounralist will 9times out of 10 think in terms of "importance". So he will say that Swordfishtrombones is Tom Waits's best album. This is the album where he found another voice, changed his style completely...The albums after Swordfishtrombones where IMO much better because then he found his new voice and he continued to refine it...those albums were more subtle. SOmething similar happens all the time when people look back on things. That's why it is nonsense to make lists and certainly to discuss them...but i really love doing that...which makes me a nonsense man.

About Van Gaal. I obviously understand Dutch and as somebody who understand him in his native language i think he is not an arrogant person (althoug sometimes he can act very arrogant). Van Gaal indeed is the perfect example of a teacher, in fact he used to be a teacher for childeren with a mental handicap (i'm not sure if they really had a mental handicap, i do know that he teached "difficult" childeren). IMO his biggest success was making AZ67 champions in Holland (just like the much maligned Mc Laren made Twente champion, also a huge achievement). I'm a bit of a fan of Van Gaal.

Since you really don't like Van Gaal you will like this story. At the end of his carreer he played in Belgium under our (later) most succesfull coach Guy Thys. Thys scarcely always denied Van Gaal a starters status in his team unless his team had lots of injuries. Of course Van Gaal did not like that and one day he decided to confront Thys. He went to Thys and said: "i don't understand why you never play me, i can do loads of things more with a ball than any other player in the squad". Thys responded: "That's true Louis, you are the most gifted player of the squad with the ball. The problem is that you never have the ball."

Oh Ben, and allow me one silly (unimportant) correction: Robbie Rensenbrink never played for Ajax. He played for DWS, CLub Brugge, Anderlecht (in his best period), Portland Timbers and Toulouse. Besides that your reply (as always) is spot on and a very interesting read. Take care.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Oh Ben, and allow me one silly (unimportant) correction: Robbie Rensenbrink never played for Ajax. He played for DWS, CLub Brugge, Anderlecht (in his best period), Portland Timbers and Toulouse

LOL! major fail by me there. that's what happens when u write things "on the go" and don't bother checking with some sources... i relied too much on my memory, as i thought he was part of that "young ajax generation". thanks for the correction mate

as for van gaal, very interesting read. and yeah, my opinion is\was based mainly of a "perception" of the man... as i don't even have direct access to what he says (i can't speak dutch or german)..... so my "sensations" about van gaal are obviously based on very unreliable sources. i'm glad to hear that i was probably wrong about him. and professionally speaking, yes, he is most certainly a "teacher". once again, thanks for setting me straight buddy.

That's why it is nonsense to make lists and certainly to discuss them...but i really love doing that...which makes me a nonsense man.

i don't think it's nonsense. it's actually a fun and interesting conversation.... and btw nonsense is usually a prerogative of genius. people who always "talk sense" are usually not open minded and definitely boring, so u should be glad to be a "nonsense man"

stef, big match tonite!! any feelings about milan-palermo u'd like to share?

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

stef, big match tonite!! any feelings about milan-palermo u'd like to share?

I'll write a reply to your earlier response and more stuff tonight/tomorrow. But from what I'm reading it seems a certain someone will start, I hope you are wetting yourself because of this guy: Super Pippo Inzaghi. Did anyone see his hunger against Real Madrid? It was frightening.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

the idea of palermo's defensive line having to deal with that NIGHTMARE is pretty scary indeed. i'm quite confident in bovo... but that munoz kid, oh boy, inzaghi will drive him crazy!

as for inzaghi's display and hunger against madrid.... did that surprise u? i mean we're talking about a legend who scored twice in a champions league finals... and yet enjoys practicing in matches with the primavera kids.
the respect i have for pippo is boundless. and i admire him as a man even more than i do as a player

for once i would be happy to see palermo's kids have a low-profile and more convervative approach to the match.

oh and btw, there's something i forgot to mention after the win against genoa..... have u guys watched balzaretti?!? seriously how in the name of God balzaretti isn't an unquestioned starter in italy's team is just beyond my understanding.
i mean seriously this situation is becoming RIDICULOUS. if any other player would have played half as good as balzaretti did in the last 3 years... in a more established club (like milan or inter or chelsea or liverpool or chelsea or barca) he would now be praised as one of the worlds best leftbacks..... yet he's so overlooked he doesn't even make the starting formation in a national team that hasn't even any established world class players in that role.
this is just unbelievable.

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Jankulovski might play today.

 

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

In Cassani and Balzaretti, Palermo have one of the most underrated full-back duos around.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

milan-palermo was pretty good yesterday. i enjoyed it.... shame the ref screwed up big time.... but hey, sometimes u get lucky, sometimes u don't.... i'm sure sooner or later palermo too is gonna get some wrong ref calls in their favour.... i'm one of those who believe this sort of situations usually tend to balance themselves, as the season unfolds.

it certainly wasn't our most impressive display (afterall that's pretty normal for midweek games), but i was really amazed by the personality palermo showed...... u just couldn't tell wich of the 2 teams was the top club and wich was the small club, as both tried to "impose" their own game to the opponent..... at some point of the game bergomi said something like this "what really amazes me of this palermo is their personality.... they're a very young team... with many rookies, many under 23 players who are playing against milan in san siro for the first time in their carreer (bacinovic, munoz, ilicic, pinilla, they were all "first timers" indeed), and yet, even though they're playing in san siro, they always keep at least 4 players in milan's midfield, ahead of the possession line... that's a top club kinda gutsyness"

it's a shame pastore missed the game. he tried to stay on the pitch, but he was clearely walking with a limp... let's hope it's nothing serious.
ilicic had his very first poor game with a palermo shirt (shocker!), while bacinovic keeps impressing me more and more.
and the same goes for munoz.... he's so much better than he was just a few months ago... he's really impressing me. even caressa yesterday remarked it.

pato is just unbelievable. he's as good as he's fragile. he's pretty much on par with aquilani on this concern.
seedorf was simply awesome yesterday, and i gotta say i also liked yepes.
stef, zeem, from the few milan games i've watched this season, i got a feeling, and i'd like to hear what u think about it (as obviously u have watched more milan games than i did).
it seems to me milan is starting to gel pretty well... i mean i seemed to notice a pretty consistant improvement each and every time i saw milan playing..... yesterday milan really played "as a team"... wich is something new to me.
what do u think about it?... is it just me or did u have the same hunch?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

oh and btw stef, sounds like u were right about sabatini. zampa didn't openly admit it but a few days ago he let something slip out of his mouth "he couldn't handle my personality".....
.... for those who know zamparini that actually means "he was sick and tired of me bitching and complaining about the stupidest details and so he resigned".

i'm very happy it's not something that concerns sabatini or his family (that was my hunch).......as for zamparini, really i have no words left to describe how STUPID this man can be... it's just unbelievable...... where the hell is he gonna find a better team director than sabatini??? and after all the great deals he did for us!!! it's just unreal. that's even more stupid than de laurentis firing marino last season....

the craziest thing is that he actually proves to be a very clever president sometimes.... how can u be so smart and stupid at the same time! AAARRGH!!!

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Zamparini is selling the club.... I don't think the ref was as bad as he's raving about. I'll comment when I get home.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Zamparini is selling the club.... I don't think the ref was as bad as he's raving about. I'll comment when I get home.

i don't buy it. he's just a drama queen and it's not the first time he has this sort of silly exagerated reactions to a bad refereed match. as for the ref.... he was actually pretty bad stef

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

The last two Serie A games have been like this for Milan. They are playing as a team. Allegri started to field a balanced formation. He dropped Dinho so Pato stopped being restricted to the side, pushed Seedorf up to a trequartista, and used Flamini to rest Pirlo(which might have added more balance). Interesting thing, when he fielded Pirlo against Bari, he put him as a trequartista in front of Flamini, Gatusso, and Ambrosini. Obviously Allegri will play like this from now on. He experimented Robinho and Ronaldinho there but Seedorf seems more suited and I like this new way. Milan got that dominant face again.

The ref was really bad. Palermo could have taken the lead at one point, could have got a penalty at another, and could have continued to dominate the game if the Milan penalty wasn't called. It all went wrong for them. I understand Zamparini. These things don't happen to Milan.

and i gotta say i also liked yepes.

Half fit Pastore made it easy. He is very solid. I seriously mistaked him for Nesta after one slide last night.

EDIT - Inzaghi out for rest of season.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

The last two Serie A games have been like this for Milan. They are playing as a team. Allegri started to field a balanced formation. He dropped Dinho so Pato stopped being restricted to the side, pushed Seedorf up to a trequartista, and used Flamini to rest Pirlo(which might have added more balance). Interesting thing, when he fielded Pirlo against Bari, he put him as a trequartista in front of Flamini, Gatusso, and Ambrosini. Obviously Allegri will play like this from now on. He experimented Robinho and Ronaldinho there but Seedorf seems more suited and I like this new way. Milan got that dominant face again.

i see so it wasn't just me. that's good news for milan then

i'm absolutely gutted for pippo. for anyone else, at his age, this would be a carreer ender.... but pippo's will, determination and love for football is stronger than anything else... i'm confident he'll be back on the pitch.... afterall, he's already overcome the very same injury that ended van basten's carreer.....never bet against filippo inzaghi!