Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Milanista said:
As much as I like Donadoni, on a human level I can't see him being much of an improvement from Ancelotti. .
Click to expand...

given what ancelotti did for milan in the last 8 years, no coach in this world could be considered as an improvement.... not even lippi, spalletti or prandelli.

anyhow it's a shame such a good coach as donadoni has no job yet. i can't wait to see him on an italian bench again... even though i hope ancelotti will stay at milanello as long as possible.

speaking of coaches....
http://www.goal.com/en/news/1707/inter/2009/01/22/1072597/jose-mourinho-tells-inter-players-you-are-all-a-pile-of-st

oh dear...:SHAKE:
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I didn't mean I consider Ancelotti a poor coach or anything like that, I think he's one of the best based on what he has achieved with Milan, but every coach reaches a peak with their clubs, and I think Ancelotti's is near the end. It almost always seems that most players have lost some motivation and inspiration, and it also seems that Ancelotti is fed up of how things are run at the club. Someone like Benitez seems like the kind of person that would want Galliani completely away from squad affairs.
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

you're forgetting a certain manchester united manager although i suppose he would be the exception to the rule.

benitez is still too much of a tinkerer imo, he makes awful substitutions at the worst times and cant seem to rotate his squad in an effective way. he doesnt get intimidated by stars and could handle the milan squad and also doesnt seem to stand for owners getting involved too much but i wouldnt want him at my club(not that milan is my club).
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I couldn't see Benetiz as a Milan coach EVER. Plus, I think Real Madrid would take him before anyone else.

Also, I wouldn't say Ancelotti reached his peak. I mean the guy reached the final stages in the CL 5-6 times in the last 8 years with almost the same team with 1-2 changes every year. Seedorf,Ambrosini,Gatusso,Pirlo,Inzaghi,Maldini,Nesta,Sheva,Cafu,and Kaladze were all there and the list goes on... Last year was bad but you can't expect winning all the time. But it was'nt in Ancelotti hand, I mean last year was supposed to be the year of the major change in the Milan formation which we are seeing now by getting young defenders, midfielders, but Milan stuck to the same formation. Another downside was Kalac who cost us the Arsenal game and many other games :DD.

In my opinion, if it was up to Milan, I would keep hold of him and wait to see what he can do with a new Milan formation with the new young players. He is one of the few I would say Greats in the coaching business today. With more years to come if he continues like this I think he would become one of the Greatest in history and top the likes of Ferguson.

But the problem is his heart is set on Roma. So Milan look for replacements. The people that come to mind are:

1- Van Basten: This is his first year at Ajax and I don't think he would leave in a matter of 2 years. Every coach wants to prove something at every stage in his career.
2- Raajkard: Used to be one of Milan's greats which makes him highly rated to become a coach plus his good career at Barca. But with Ronaldinho and the troubles they had. I don't know.
3- Leonardo: Hard to loose him as a scout after what he had brought us, but I think he wants it. With more experience I think he might get it.
4- Donadoni: I think he is a less successful Ancelotti.
5- Paolo Maldini :DD : My dream to see him on the bench one day. But I think he should get the youth team first like Guardiola.

IMO, the ideal thing to do is hold on to Ancelotti for a couple more years to see what he can do with the likes of Pato, Silva, Mattioni... But the one thing I would like him to change is that he should have a position with the Milan administration. I mean after 8 years you think a coach would do what he likes and the admin would trust him, but that's the worst downside of Ancelotti...
 
Last edited:
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I am surprised at the Martinez love. He has seemed a bit overhyped to me. I expected to see a lot more from him. He is useful, but I really don't think he should be a staple in their line-up IMO. I can see the arguement with all of their Def minded/gritty midfielders who are hard working, he is kind of the opposite. He does have some skill, but I feel he can be pretty wasteful, and not as team oriented as Mascara has shown. But it's not like they have other options. Would have been nice if Dica worked out.

I like the Silvestre & Bovo comparison. I might choose Silvestre strickly for his arial ability. Bovo is slightly better in positioning and consistent defensive skill IMO.
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Hey Ben,

Can i get your thoughts on Bentivoglio. Bentivoglio is a player I have watched this season at Chievo, and have been very impressed with. He is a IMO a young De Rossi. I could see him playing and Central Midfielding position. As long as he is not on a wing, because really speed is where he is most lacking. He has great ability to strike the ball, and has great long passes(as well as FK & CKs). I can't decide if he is better in the attack or defensively. His size helps defensively, but his middle shooting ability, and and general attack ability is good as well. Is there anything else on him I am missing?

I've read through a lot of your posts on this thread over the past 3/4 years. And it is clear that your knowledge is fantastic.

Thanks,

Jason

p.s. I saw your pre-season prediction for you Palermo line-up. Was curious why you felt Migliaccio was a better player to have at LCMF than Bresciano. I have felt Bresciano has been fanstastic in the MF this season.
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Great Palermo!!!!
three wins in a row, and reached the sixth place with Fiorentina
way to go, boys!!!!!!

Simplicio & Cavani, lead us to the victory against Roma!!!!!
 
Last edited:
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Inter sure are doing a good job of being clean... Mourinho suspended, Adriano suspended... they're blaming externalities when really its their own fault. Mourinho is a fun character, but he does need to respect the referees a bit more. After calciopoli loads of refs were sacked, so we have to start with youngsters... if we keep hammering them with criticisms, they'll never improve.
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

jmg721 said:
Can i get your thoughts on Bentivoglio. Bentivoglio is a player I have watched this season at Chievo, and have been very impressed with. He is a IMO a young De Rossi.
Click to expand...

i haven't seen him playing enough to say what he's really about (i watched about 3 or 4 entire chievo matches this season so i couldn't have any reliable opinion about him.

however describing him as a young de rossi is maybe a bit of a stretch.... there are a few players i would put "on the same page" of de rossi, like essien and palombo.... they're both top class players with several years of experience (much more than bentivoglio)... and they're both still far from being really on the same level of daniele.

anyhow, given his cutting inside tendency and his great stamina, if i had to pick a romanista i'd say bentivoglio seems to be more of a perrotta-like player rather than de rossi.... but then again, as i said earlier, i barely know him so i'm probably wrong about him :))

as for the bresciano-migliaccio point, i really didn't expect ballardini to line up that kind of formation earlier this season.
bresciano had a very poor season last year... i never questioned his skills of course, but i thought ballardini wouldn't have taken such a big risk (lining up in such a key-role a player who was coming from a bad season).

besides that shouldn't even be his proper role (he never played as a left-internal centre midfielder in a 3 midfielders flat-line before). in that role u would expect to see a more hard working-defensive kinda midfielder... especially when u already have simplicio playing just behind the fowards..... theoretically breciano's role should have been simplicio's one (hence i thought bresciano would have been simplicio's backup this season).

surprisingly he has been simply amazing in that spot, and the new bresciano position was definitely one of the smartest moves of ballardini so far.

ballardini really is a tactical mastermind... seriously he makes colantuono look like a premiership coach (and i used to like colantuono!)
anyhow, no matter how good we're playing theese days, i honestly can't see us winning against roma tomorrow... the giallorossi are on fire right now.

concerning the referees issue, i really think there's no reason to complain about them... i mean let's be objectives, they're young, but (most of em) are still way, way better than most of the british and spanish referees...
they do commit mistakes, but those mistakes are NOTHING compared to what happens in epl and in liga every week.
and yet u don't see british people and media complaining about a ref for months as we do.
i think mourinho said something very true. it's a cultural issue.
talking about sport culture and fair play, british people are just miles ahead of us... we will always complain about the refs, no matter how good they are, simply because, we can't accept the results of a match, coz we're not "mature" enough. we could have 10 collinas refereeing our matches every week, and i'm sure we would still find the way to blame the refs for our teams poor results....
and after the terrible scandal we went through a couple of years ago, this situation became even worse, as every time our clubs loose, the club presidents and the media, keep talking about "ghosts"....

it's sad, but (and i agree with mourinho in this concern too) we will never change our "bad sport mentality".

what i do not understand however is... if mourinho was smart enough to realise it, then how come he's the coach who complains the most, why he's the one who blame the referee more than everybody else in italy?
 
Last edited:
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Ben, i've read in books about Italian football that there used to be a monday evening television program where ref's decisions are ridiculously scrutinized...i've read in those books that this is supposed to be typically Italian...(of course those books are written by foreign - Brittish- writers).

Does that program still exist and as an Italian what do you think about it and is is "typically Italian" (which sound utter bullshit to me, just like we Belgians are supposed to be paedophiles or child murderers after what happened in the 90's and last week).
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Its a real show, its called "Processo di Biscardi". The thing I like about him is that he is pro video-replay help for referees.
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

gerd said:
Ben, i've read in books about Italian football that there used to be a monday evening television program where ref's decisions are ridiculously scrutinized...i've read in those books that this is supposed to be typically Italian...(of course those books are written by foreign - Brittish- writers).

Does that program still exist and as an Italian what do you think about it and is is "typically Italian" (which sound utter bullshit to me, just like we Belgians are supposed to be paedophiles or child murderers after what happened in the 90's and last week).
Click to expand...

yeah Gerd, it still exists. "il processo di Biscardi".... a bunch of fools (it's just impossible for me to call them journalists) watching slow motion videos for about 2 hours and screaming "that was a clear penalty", "no that was not a penalty, that was a dive"...
it's like watching a bunch of clueless fans having the usual crap-sport-pub conversation.... the thing is they do it on the tv.... and people in italy even like it!!! at least according to their audience data.

as for the book writer describing this as a "tipycal italian thing", i have to say that's true... it really is.
infact many other football shows on tv are today copying the "processo di biscardi" model, most of our tv football shows today don't really talk about football anymore.....they focus on the referees performances rather than football.
even our newspapers are following this tendency lately... probably coz this is what people wanna read today. it's really boring... and sad aswell, as most of our football newspaper journalists really have a good football knowledge.....yet football doesn't seem to be their main concern anymore (probably with those rubbish articles about the referees they sell more).

and it's also sad coz it highlights our (italian) lack of fair play, our incapacity to "accept" the result of a football match (or anything else)...
what's more grotesque is that this is the most important lesson sport teach us: living with the result, accepting it, learning how to win and how to loose.
that's what i meant when i said that british have such a better sport culture.

of course i don't like stereotypes (like the ones u mentioned about belgian people... wich are just ridiculous... aswell as many other stereoptypes about italians), but there are definitely some differences in our cultures. we all have our good aspects and our weak spots. and this is definitely one of our weak spots....:(
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

So it is true...i also read in one of those books that in Italy papers have articles concerning which referee is designated to what match...in Belgian we have previews about matches (which IMHO are pretty useless, the most attractive aspect of football is the random factor...that's why football is more a game than sports...) but if that is true, then it's even more useless...
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

gerd said:
So it is true...i also read in one of those books that in Italy papers have articles concerning which referee is designated to what match...in Belgian we have previews about matches (which IMHO are pretty useless, the most attractive aspect of football is the random factor...that's why football is more a game than sports...) but if that is true, then it's even more useless...
Click to expand...

yep, that's true aswell :DOH:

great performance from palermo last week. we did loose against roma, but honestly we played much better than them for most of the match. this palermo keeps surprising me. looking at the squad list and the starting 11, this is possibly the weakest palermo (since we're in serie a)... nevertheless we've never played such a nice football with such consistance as we're doing this season. :))


on a different note, awesome match between napoli and udinese right now.

speaking of napoli....
YouTube - lavezzi (novembre)
:LMAO::LMAO::LMAO:
just a napoletano could have written such a song :LOL:
i don't know how many of u will understand this... infact this is napoletano dialect, wich means that probably even the italians in here won't be able to understand it very well.....
anyhow it was just too hilarious not to post it
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Ahh 2 awesome misses at the end of the game by Lavezzi and Pasquale....
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

the season is getting every week more interesting. the only boring match i watched so far was lazio-juve (a few weeks ago).

the rosanero were outplayed by genoa yesterday... fair enough we beated em in palermo, they beated us in genova... got to say when gasperini's guys start pushing, there's really nothing to do. u just pray they'll get tired as soon as possible.... watching them playing is really a pleasure (unless they're playing against your team).

it's a shame genoa didn't go for pelè. i really liked that kid last season and i thought he would have been a very good backup for motta.

it seems mourinho is finally getting rid of quaresma (wich is good), but swapping him for jenas??? :SHOCK:

i had a bet with an inter fan friend last summer... i told him quaresma would have been sold before the beginning of the next season (sept. '09).... i'm so looking foward that free dinner :P
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

But surely Quaresma has the potential, I think he's one of those players that hasnt found the right coach and team, Im sure at United he would have developed the way Ronaldo has. :))
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

For the Milan team, I am really impressed by Abbiati. He is doing an amazing job keeping the goal safe. A much better job than I expected.

Senderos, on the other hand, I am not impressed with. Every time he is on the verge of making a mistake and just kicks the ball in no mans land when moving from defence to attack.

Other thing, I am really disappointed to see Flamini and Ronaldinho always benched. Even when Gatusso is injured Flamini doesn't get to play and we are building a team around Beckham who although playing well, is just gonna be around for 1 month. This also means that Gourcuff will never find his place in the formation if he gets back.

Quaresma joining Chelsea :DD
 
Last edited:
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Some of you might find this funny, its made by a guy on the Milan blog, I've translated it:

Inter's Daily Routine

08:00 Mourinho wakes up and says "i love you" to himself at the mirror

08:30 Adriano closes his night club and goes to training, sleeps at the wheel

09:00 The players arrive at training. Muntari asks Materazzi if he could teach him Italian seeing as he's the only one. After 5 minutes, it ends, he gives a dictionary to Materazzi and asks Zanetti for help instead.

10:00 Roberto Mancini rings to see why he isn't still getting paid this month, seeing as he has to pay his plastic surgeon. Mourinho responds and Mancini quickly rings Moratti in tears, saying "You told me it was over with Jose!"

10:10 Quaresma practices trivelas, 3 dead pigeons (Trivela is shot with the outside foot)

10:20 A boy scout inter fan helps Figo cross the road to get to training

10:30 Mourinho tries his new strategy - 'Long ball to Zlatan, pray to god he does something'

11:00 Quaresma keeps practicing trivelas, serious injury to a nearby worker.

14:00 Cordoba, Samuel and Materazzi organize a little band in the middle of the pitch with the youth players. They then present their new book, written by more immigrants titled "However it goes, you can never get rid of us"

15:00 Mourinho sends a love letter.

15:30 Quaresma keeps trying trivelas, hitting Figo's medical tubes

16:00 Mourinho tries a new strategy - 'Zlatan, you do it'

17:00 Quaresma keeps trying trivelas, Mourinho tells him that there are no more footballs, and you can't always go to Malpensa (Airport in Milan) to pick them up and that he's really annoying Jose'

18:00 Adriano arrives, asking when dinner is.

18:15 Mourinho interrogates the players, asking "So guys, did you understand what you have to do? Everyone sing a long "We must pass to Ibra"'. Everyone but Materazzi responds "present" at attendance

18:30 The players start heading home. Adriano heads to Hollywood and Figo to the old home.

22:00 Mourinho repeatedly makes love to himself and at the end says "you were great, as usual"

24:00 In bed, without anyone knowing, Quaresma does a trivela
Click to expand...
:LOL:
 
Last edited:
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Milanista said:
08:30 Adriano closes his night club and goes to training, sleeps at the wheel
18:00 Adriano arrives, asking when dinner is.
Click to expand...
theese are my favourites :LOL:

YoungGun_UK said:
But surely Quaresma has the potential, I think he's one of those players that hasnt found the right coach and team, Im sure at United he would have developed the way Ronaldo has. :))
Click to expand...

if sir alex can turn a quaresma into a ronaldo, then he must be a wizard, coz those 2 players belong to different worlds. under every point of view (technique, build, pace, tactical education) ronaldo is just on another class.
let's make it simple ronaldo is today one of the very best wingers in europe (arguably the best). Quaresma isn't among the 20 best wingers in serie a.... that's the gap between those 2 guys.. rosina, pepe, defendi, cerci, langella, menez, palladino, brienza, sanchez, sculli, abate, camoranesi, ferreira pinto, gasbarroni, jankovic, lazzari, mancini, padalino, santana, semioli..... all theese players would deserve to be compared to c. ronaldo more than quaresma, as they're all better than him.

and as for the "environmental" point... honestly in milano quaresma found the best possible environment.
he joined one of the best teams in europe (at least roster-wise), full of great players, who have a great professional attitude (samuel,julio cesar, maicon, zanetti, cambiasso, stankovic, ibra.... even thought hey're all "gods" they all have a nice, friendly and professional attitude, so no way quaresma could feel unconfortable playing with them).
his coach designed a tactical system which did suit his specs perfectly. infact at the beginning mourinho's formation was a 4-3-3.
and even though balotelli constantly proved he's just a better player than quaresma in that role (under every point of view), mourinho kept trusting and trusting quaresma, without questioning his starter role for weeks (despite his rubbish performances)..... and honestly i can't even blame mourinho for this. he was the one who wanted quaresma in milano.... and even though the price was ridiculously high and moratti himself didn't want to buy quaresma, he kept asking so badly that, in the end, moratti had to say "okay".... so it's pretty normal that josè couldn't just drop him... not even after weeks and weeks of "amateur-like" performances.

so, to sum up, u have a coach who loves u, u joined a team which is the favourite for the serie a title and also one of the favourites for the champions league (even though i really don't think so), your teammates are all nice guys and the formation is perfect for u to fit in...... what more can u expect???
if u can't step up (or at least avoid to "step down") in theese conditions, then it just means that you're not good enough.

that's why i'm starting to realise this guy has no potential at all.
mind u, my opinion here is not 100% reliable. quaresma played 13 matches at inter this season... and i watched about 8 of em. plus 5 or 6 porto matches in the past few years... plus a some portugal matches..... i guess i watched this guy playing about 20 times..... sure it's not enough to say i really know what he's all about. but it's enough to get an idea.
quaresma has been disappointing in every possible way so far, and my idea is that he's not going to get better.

i mean we're talking about a 26 years old player here.... he's already past half of his carreer... and we're still talking about his potential?! there's something wrong here.

i mean we don't even have to take a deep look to get an idea about quaresma.
- pace - yes he's pretty fast.... but then again he's a winger, so he's supposed to be pretty fast.... and in the end, he's not as fast as rosina, brienza or lazzari.
- dribbling - once again pretty good.... but once again, as soon as u take a look at his rolemates in serie a, the perspective changes. as a matter of fact, taddei, rosina, camoranesi, di natale, palladino, gasbarroni, santana... they're all way better than him in dribbling.
- technique - everybody keep talking about quaresma's touch.... but why? on wich basis people keep considenring him as a player with a "silky touch"? When i think about wingers or supporting strikers with great technique my mind goes simao, rosina, cozza, miccoli, pato, menez, cerci.... and i'm not even mentioning those who have a "top class" technique like ronaldo, di natale, taddei or camoranesi, as they're just too far from quaresma.
well all those guys i mentioned before have such a better touch than quaresma, there's not even competition.

there's a very simple exercise to "measure" a player's touch. pay attention to the distance between the ball and his foot when he's running with the ball.
this is the easiest and most reliable way to measure a player's sensibility, his technique.
since u probably all like to play football from time to time, u already know it; the faster u run, the harder is to keep the ball close to your foot. u must hit the ball with the right "cut" in order to avoid it to go too far, but of course, when your legs start moving quicker and quicker, and your muscles start pumping more and more, it becomes extremely tricky to give the ball that gentle "cutting" touch.

now watch ronaldo running with the ball, watch kakà or rosina or giovinco or camoranesi running with the ball. the ball is almost glued to their foot, no matter how fast they're running. then take a look at quaresma running with the ball........

and shall we talk about his ridiculous tactical ignorance? about his incapacity to keep it simple?
wingers all around the world play like quaresma plays till they're 21 or 22. they keep trying tricks, just to show how good they are, they try harder and harder, even when it would be much better to go for a simple play. this usually leads to many silly mistakes.... wich usually leads to the coach yelling at u.

but eventually u learn. u reach that kind of professional maturity and experience a 23\24 years old play should have.... and u start focusing on the game and not on your tricks... u begin to realise when it's time to show your skills and when it's more useful to keep it simple.
quaresma is 26 and still didn't realise this simple, basic fundamental.

and however wich are theese tricks we're talking about? a trivela??? sure not. u can't call "trick" a move which doens't work 99% of the times u try it, can u?
let me tell u something.
1 year ago (febbruary '08) italy and portugal played a fiendly in switzerland.
quaresma was lined up on the left side at the beginning.
well, for the first 45 minutes he kept crossing with the outside-right foot. of course none of his crosses reached the target. so, after the 4th consecutive wrong cross, i started thinking "why is he doing that?" i mean crossing with the outside is extremely difficult... and it's also useless.... coz u're close to the goal line so a good cross can have just 1 possible trajectory (from the outside to the inside). if your cross has the opposite trajectory, then the defenders won't have to turn their backs to the keeper in order to intercept it and this will make their job much easier.
so why crossing like that?
the only reason that came into my mind was that maybe he had such a bad touch with the left foot that he had no choice (a winger on the left must cross the ball with the left foot and shot with the right foot)....
but then why crossing? if your a winger with a bad left foot touch, and u're playing on the left side, u can still cut inside and try a through ball or a shot. this way u will be able to use your right foot.

then in the second half i realised that was not the reason. scolari infact swapped him with ronaldo. quaresma was now on the right side, so he would have (finally) been able to cross with his natural foot and avoid using the outside.
but he didn't!!! he kept crossing with the outside boot (of the left foot this time).... and the result was even worse.

2 days after the match i had a chat with a portuguese friend. i told him "what's wrong with this quaresma? why did he kept crossing with the outside?? it was so annoying".
and my friend told me "what are u talking about? that's his special trick, his signature, his trademark move... it also has a name: a trivela".
so i replied "wait a minute. u mean he does it on purpose? and u guys like it???? how can u even call it a special trick.... to describe a move as a special trick.... that move should be effective and succesful at least 3/4 times out of 10. amauri became famous for his no-looking passes because those passes actually reach the target (most of the times).... if he would fail almost every no-looking pass, then it wouldn't be a special move anymore, it would be just pathetic!"

i tell u, i can do the trivela aswell. i can easily cross the ball with the outside of the boot. the ball will end anywhere near the box of course...... but then again isn't this what quaresma does??? :P
 
Last edited:
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Ciao Ben!

One thing we need to talk about.... Cellino... his decision to keep Allegri... and Cagliari in 8th place! I thought Cagliari were going to be relegation candidates when the season started... but theyre playing very efficient football, in the sense that they take their chances to win matches, even if they have very few.

Another thing to talk about - Alexandre Pato. He's 19, and has 10 goals with Milan. Milan imo have the scariest attack and most dangerous set pieces in the league right now. Once Borriello is back, Pato and him will complement each other, im certain it will work. Pato is just constantly justifying his price tag.... I love him!!! Hes got so much potential.
 
Last edited:
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Lazio has big problems now, they are playing Nestor Muslera in goal (Carrizo is absent) and, to be honest, he's pretty hopeless. It's a shame because Lazio are a good team to watch, playing attacking football (sometimes they play 3 strikers of Pandev, Zarate, Rocchi) and they have a lot of pace in players like Foggia and sometimes Lichtsteiner. They are good at free kicks and crossing (espcially Kolarov if he starts, Ledesma is good too), but it has gone wrong with the central defence and the spine of the team.
 
Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Great post about Quaresma Ben, I agree with all of it 100%. People are kind of blinded by his 'tricks' and he gives off the illusion he is a classy flair player but in reality he is quite different and people dont realise he is approaching the peak of his career and has is yet to show any signs he will reach his 'potential'.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom