Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

AT LAST! Stupid Arabs trying to ruin football! GO F*** YOURSELVES YOU RICH CUNTS!!!
Thank god that there are still players that love a club, not all of them are gold diggers!
I don't support Milan in the Serie A but you just saved the world of football by denying an undeniable bet on a class player!

I do agree with what you say about players that love a club (see also Milito and Genoa which is even more impressive).
I do not agree with the begining of your reaction...the same can be said about Berlusconi in the '80's, about the Agnelli's in Turin, about Ramon Calderon (or Franco) in Madrid, about the Glazier's (and the United owners before them), and about every rich football owner (and to own a football club one must be rich).

Basically i think that it's good for football that new big clubs emerge. What is wrong about Man City is that the emirs from Abu Dhabi want to rush things....

But let's not fool ourselves the Milan and the Man United are also very, very rich...now and then there is a fairy tale like Porto winning the CL due to a generation of extremely gifter players, but that is a big exception and it never lasts because those gifted players are bought by the real big clubs (cfr. Porto).

To conclude: i'm happy for Italian football and for the Milan fans that Kaka stays. I'm not a Milan or Kaka fan, but i think he's the best player in the world (until Messi will get a litle bit older that is...) and i love Italian football...

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

i have to admit it was quite a moving scene. the fans singing for kaka (from the afternoon to late night) on the street, right in front of his home. Kakà appearing at the window (it looked like the pope!) to show his gratitude, crying, holding his nr.22 shirt... jeez... it almost made me think about "Romeo and Giulietta"!

let me tell u a story.
during the '60s there was this young promising italian striker. he was born in '44 in a little village in the "deep north" of italy. he was bought by cagliari when he was 20.
The first impact with cagliari was very tough for him. he was the typical northern italian. Very quiet, polite, extremely shy and moderate. cagliari instead is the typical southern city. it's noisy, passionate and warm. no wonder this little kid didn't find himself at home there (a couple of years ago, in an interview, he said "at the beginning i tought - good Lord what have i done!. what am i doing here".

well eventually the kid grew up, dropped his armour and opened his heart to cagliari people. he litterally fell in love with cagliari.
and he grew up also from a professional point of view, as he became a world class foward... actually more than this... he became the 2nd best striker in the world... just one step behind Pelè (pelè himself once admitted "maybe i had a bit more technique than him, but he was a better overall foward")
he was serie a's cannoniere (top scorer) for 3 years in a row. and even though cagliari wasn't really a top club those days (it was a mid class team wich used to play some top class football..... pretty much as today's cagliari), he was able to lead his little team to the scudetto. with our national team he won the european championship in '68 and lost the world cup final against pele's brazil (arguably the best brazil team ever) in '70.
with italy's shirt he played 42 matches, scoring 35 goals (wich means a goal-per-matches ratio of 0.83!!!!).... no need to say it's italy's all time record.

so no wonder if the top clubs were looking for him. Juventus in '74 made a huge bid for him... the club just couldn't say "no" coz their star player became just too good to stay in cagliari.....
but surprisingly it was the lad himself the one who said "no". the bond with cagliari became just too strong, and he couldn't leave "his people" anymore.

that player was Gigi Riva (aka "rombo di tuono), the legendary foward, one of the greatest strikers of all times (the best one according to pele's words).

here in italy we usually call players like Riva "bandiere".
Bandiera (bandiere is the plural) means "flag". it's a metaphorical expression we use when we refer to those players who became icons for their class and their loyalty to their clubs. we use the word Bandiera to refer to the club's emblem (the italian proper translation of emblem would be "stemma", but we rather use the word bandiera). so, in a metaphorical sense, we say that those players had such a strong bond with the team, the fans, the city, they became the ideal representation of the team itself, like an emblem, a flag, a "bandiera".

till 30 years ago there were many "bandiere" around europe... today just a few clubs in the world have a real bandiera. scholes (man utd), gerrard (liverpool), raul (real madrid), del piero (juve), maldini (milan), zanetti (inter).

however some might say it's pretty easy to be a top class club's bandiera. afterall, playing in a top class club u already got access to the european competitions, u earn quite a lot of money, u have your good chances to win trophies.
so just a few bandiere have a chance to really show, to prove their loyalty through their carreers. Del piero went in serie b, rather than accepting the rich offers that other top clubs (inside and outside italy) made for him. even tough he had absolutely no responsailities, no faults at all, he payed (together with juve) for what other people did. but while juve had no other choice than "paying" (with the serie b), del piero could have easily choosen a different path (as many others did), and no one would have blamed him. but still he said "the captain doesn't leave the boat when it's sinking".

totti and de rossi had a chance to prove their loyalty too, when they refused milan (totti) and real madrid (de rossi and totti) offers.

i think now we can put kaka in the same list.

i still don't know if that was the best option for milan (unlike most of the top clubs outside italy, milan has a very little overdraft and with just 60 of those 100 millions milan would have payed all his debts), but i have to admit, it was moving .
besides the only thing that really matters is the milanisti's opinion and they seem to be extremely confident this was the best thing for milan, so, i can just be happy for them.

one thing is for sure however. after hearing what kakà said yesterday, i guess it's pretty evident he'll never leave milan... unless galliani and berlusconi will kick him out.... and now that both galliani and berlusconi have seen how the fans would react to such a thing.... i don't think they'll ever accept an offer for kakà, no matter how big it is.

anyhow guys, kaka did definitely something important. with his refusal, he proved that sometimes money is not the most important thing in football's world.... and this is good.
but still i wouldn't consider this arabian lad as some sort of a devil. sure i don't like this attitude. sure i don't think this is a the most proper way to build a team.... but afterall what he's trying to do is not different from what abramovich did a few years ago.

oh and there's one more thing we realised from this story. Deep in the milanesi soul, there's a napoletano's heart

If Milan want money, then sell Ronaldinho, Borriello, Gourccuf, even Pirlo I don't care

i guess we will all pretend we didn't read this part Zeem

edit: i just read Gerd's post, wich, as usual, perfectly reflects my personal opinion about man city's strategies.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Thanks Ben.

And also thank you very much for your story about Gigi Riva.
I knew straightaway that your story was about Riva, but the part about a possible Juve transfer and his refusal was new to me...now i consider him an even bigger player...call me old fashioned, but i appreciate that attitude.

If you read the story about Robinho who walked out on Man City...that is the opposite of a bandiere, i would call that the attitude of an arse hole. I agree that players are in it for the money, but Robinho does not behave like a professional (after Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Denilson, is this something typical for Brazilian players ??? i guess not, look at Kaka...).

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Its honestly a great weekend for every Milan fan. Atalanta thrash Inter, Juve draw with Lazio, Mattioni signs, and now Kaka has pledged his loyalty to the club.... when I first heard the news it felt like we won the Champions League! Many sources were sure the deal was done, so I was about to go to the pub depressed.

 

[Jumbo_]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I agree that players are in it for the money, but Robinho does not behave like a professional (after Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Denilson, is this something typical for Brazilian players ??? i guess not, look at Kaka...).

Maybe this is the wrong way to look at things but you often hear that Kaka has a wealthier background than most other Brazilian footballers and maybe this together with the 'party' attitude is why they have different primary goals and attitudes in life/football.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Maybe this is the wrong way to look at things but you often hear that Kaka has a wealthier background than most other Brazilian footballers and maybe this together with the 'party' attitude is why they have different primary goals and attitudes in life/football.

I agree with you...kids like Ronaldo come from the favella's and clubs don't invest in people who help them cope with their sudden wealth, fortune and stardom...
You can't blame the players themselves...if i would 've earned that kind of money and fame when i was in my twenties, my god i would have done very stupid things without some guidance...

I'm avid reader of FourFourTwo. Every month there is "the boy's a bit special" about young talented football players on the verge of a (possible) breakthrough. This kids are playing with the reserves of Premiership teams or in the A team of the Champioship..there is a standard question about their cars...almost every single of them owns a ridculously expensive car...

Here in Belgium there was the story of Anthony Van Den Borre (then Andelecht, now Genoa) who when he turned 18 bought himself the most expensive Mercedes and crashed the car the same day...this says it all (even if Van Den Borre is not the brightest kid in town)...Van Den Borre does not come from a favella but to my countries standards he comes from a very modes background...
Not all young stars are the same, to mention another Belgian player, Vincent Kompany is the opposite. He's very bright and desperately wants to study at the university. There was recently an interview with him in the Independent and Kompany showed that he was bright kid. He talked about the city of Manchester and why he likes it (not the same PR-talk as all the football stars) and talekd about being coloured when Barack Obama will be the first black president of the USA...

 

[seek]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

What's with Fiorentina? First selling Pazzini and now Osvaldo? Has Gila suddenly become that good? Who are the replacements?!?!?!

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Pazzini and Osvaldo never really played. Gilardino is scoring goals. They also have Jovetic and Mutu. Bonazzoli on loan to replace Pazzini.

 

[seek]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Do they still play a 4-3-3?

 

[jmg721]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Yes they do. I honestly don't know what they are doing

They just killed their depth. They run with 1 CF w/ Gila, and they have a SS with Mutu(or Jovetic with his injury). They liked to sub Pazzini and Osvaldo in this season late in games, now you only have Bonazzoli and....Papa Waigo?? It makes me a little sad, not sure what they are doing. I could see them dumping Almiron or Gobbi, because they have depth there...but to lose both, man.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

there's nothing to be worried about Jmg. Corvino Always knows what he's doing. u see, "depth" is something u go looking for when u have to play 3 matches in a week. so having a deep roster (or a long bench as we use to say) was important for fiorentina until now.

but now the champions league group stage is over and fiorentina is also out of the coppa italia. prandelli will have only to take care about the campionato and the coppa uefa (and we all know prandelli, as anybody else in italy, doesn't give a damn about coppa uefa).

and however, even considering the coppa uefa as an important target for fiorentina (wich is not)..... the thing is it's still not enough football to justify such a deep roster....

in theese conditions having a deep roster is not useful anymore. actually it becomes a big problem. because it becomes tricky for prandelli to give enough playtime to the backups (and both pazzini and osvaldo were already quite disappointed about the lack of playtime). no need to say that having 2 disappointed backups isn't helpful at all.

afterall it was not corvino the one who decided to sell them (neither della valle or prandelli). pazzini and osvaldo were the ones who asked to be sold. and corvino just had no options.... i mean what would have been the point in holding them in firenze? it would have certainly killed their motivation.

besides both pazzini and osvaldo weren't the right backups for fiorentina. those 2 guys have an enourmous potential... they need as much playtime as they can get, in order to get experience, in order to improve, in order to turn that potential into current, real ability. they already have the skill, they just need the playtime. and fiorentina cannot give em that playtime they need, coz there are just too many big players.
bologna and sampdoria are both much better destinations for their growth.

and anyhow fiorentina got something in change aswell. they got bonazzoli as part of the pazzini deal. and bonazzoli is just what fiorentina needs right now. Emiliano can take gilardino's place when alberto needs to rest, but i think he could also play along with gila (when prandelli needs a heavier attack).
Bonazzoli is one of the most underrated strikers in italy. he has some serious skills. his only problem is that he just can't be a starter, as he's way too fragile, too injury-prone.... but in firenze this won't be a problem, as he won't be a starter.
and he's not a young promising player, who needs playtime. he's an experienced (but still not old) player who will have no problem in accepting the backup role (unlike osvaldo and pazzini).

afterall they still have 2 complete offensive set ups. gila, mutu and santana........ or bonazzoli, jovetic and papa waigo.... and then there's also semioli... i mean it's not like they lack of offensive options .
moreover now prandelli will be able to give more playtime to jovetic.... that kid is a little monster with real world class potential.... fiorentina made a big investment on him.... it would have been a shame wasting his talent on the bench for any longer.
as i said earlier, Corvino always knows what he's doing

Has Gila suddenly become that good? Who are the replacements?!?!?!

Gila has always been that good, Seek. the thing is he wasn't able to prove it in milan (it was not his fault, as the reason of his average performances was the gameplan of milan...... but then again it wasn't ancelotti's fault either, as he just couldn't change the gameplan only to suit 1 player... it would have been too risky). and however even in milan, it's not like he was shit. that was the worst period in gila's career, and still he was nothing less than "average"... not poor. and i think Stefano here will agree with me, even though he didn't score that much (a goal per matches ratio of 0.40 is not bad anyhow), he still did an amazing job, moving the possession line and helping the whole team...

Gilardino's numbers can tell u what a monster he is more than i ever could.
the guy has scored 12 goals in 15 matches..... with no penalties!!!! right now he's the 2nd top scorer in serie a, right behind Di vaio, who scored 14 goals (but 3 of those 14 were penalties, so we could say gila is the real top scorer)

this guy is still 26 and he already scored 106 goals in serie a!!!!!!
he still has at least 8 years of football at top level to go through and he already is one of the greatests scorers in serie a history!
and it's not like serie a history isn't full of great fowards.
i mean bierhoff, toni, van basten, zola, serena , paolo rossi..... he already scored more than them.... and he still didn't reach his prime!
all the players who are still ahead of him in the "serie a all time strikers parade" are legends...giordano, mazzola, balbo, vialli, rivera, bettega, graziani, altobelli, pruzzo chiesa, mancini, riva, boninsegna, batistuta, baggio, signori, altafini....... theese are the players (some of em) who scored more than gila... all legends... al world class players.... and they had to play for an entire carreer to reach that ammount of goals.... gilardino still didn't reach the half of his professional path... and he's already there.... by the tyme he'll retire, he'll probably be ahead of many of those legends aswell.

so mate, it's not like Gila suddenly became good. he IS world class.

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Gila is definately a classy striker. Even at Milan his first season was amazing. Then when Sheva left Milan changed to a Xmas tree formation instead of the 4-4-2 and from then Gila went downward while Inzaghi upward. Last season he was'nt even given enough time to play to prove himself. I really like the guy and he is a definate call-up for Lippi's WC squad. Maybe even if he continues like this kick Toni's permenantly from the starting eleven. Really sick he is'nt the Serie A top scorer. Penalties should not be taken into consideration.

Anyway, Do you think he will ever experience a big club again?

i guess we will all pretend we didn't read this part Zeem

Kaka>>>Pirlo

 

[jmg721]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Thanks so much lo zio!! Being a Viola fan in the US, I can never get any explanation like that. I just found this thread, but you can gaurentee I will be a frequent visitor now

 

[seek]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Thanks for the wealth of knowledge lo zio. Always a pleasure reading your posts!

 

[Phat J 22]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

yeah that was a great story about riva lo zio, i'd never even heard of him. you seem to have a very good grasp on the game as well, ive only recently started to pay attention to tactics and strategy employed by managers. its been interesting hearing your views on mourinho, i always thought he was pretty good until i heard what you thought of him lol.

 

[jmg721]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I am new to this thread, and it is possible Torino has already been discussed. If so I apologize, but I am really confused with a lot of the moves and line-ups they have put together. Hopefully someone can explain some of these things to me.

First off is their backline. I really don't know if or how injured Diana is, but he NEEDS to be their RB. I saw them try to move him to LMF and Colombo to RB, and it was a disaster. Currently, Diana is out of the line-up and instead of having RB-Diana, CB-Di Loreto, CB-Natali, LB-Pisano like they were playing earlier in the season. Now I feel they are playing just about everyone out of position. RB-Di Loreto, CB-Natali, CB-Pisano, LB-Ogbonna. I thought Ogbonna was a natural(yet unseasoned) CB, and pisano is a natural attacking LB. Di Loreto looks really poor in space, and he is a decent CB. The most surprising thing to me is that Pisano has not looked bad at CB. His positional sense and quickness seem to make up for his lack of stature. I think it was a good idea to stop playing Pratali though. I don't think Dellafiore is the answer either.

Secondly, what is the deal with Rosina. I think he is one of the brightest talents in Italy. Very exciting to watch. He recently has been re-entered into the line-up, but was out of favor for a while. I really like the look of him on the LMF and Abate on the RMF. I think they found something in the Central midfield with the pairing of Barone and Dzmaili. Dzmaili is one talented player who looks to be getting better. The lose of Corini to injury really hasn't hurt them too much. Saumel has looked decent coming off the bench.

Lastly, Why don't they get a different CF. The way they are playing there are a lot of opportunities for Bianchi, and he has looked TERRIBLE. Amoroso has been quality is support, but they keep playing Bianchi, and they are surprised they can't find the back of the net? Stellone is their other options, but he is much better at being a post player who can distribute to his teammates after winning the arial battles. Never really been able to get his goal talleys up.

I think this is an interesting and talented squad, and I'd hate to see them get religated due to odd coaching decisions, and Bianchi.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

thank u all guys for your kind words. also to u Zeem, for what u wrote in the man city thread... i'm replying to u in here just to avoid spamming on the man city thread... however i don't really feel like i could teach anything concerning football to anybody. it's just a fair opinions exchange... and there are plenty of great posters in here, like u . speaking of our "high quality regulars"... where are abhi, sabac and dominic? haven't read anything from them since a while.

Jmg, i don't think we ever discussed torino in here. and actually it's quite weird as there would be lots to talk about. to be honest, torino is a big mistery to me.
i can easily understand why tottenham underperformed so far this season (just too many changes in the starting formation, and not enough patience... ramos should have been given more time imo). i can also understand why man city is underachieving, or, talking about last season, why lazio and sevilla underachieved... but torino (along with samp) is a big question mark to me.

they have quite a good team, with good options for almost every role, and also a very good coach.... but still they can't deliver... and it gets even more weird when u consider how teams like catania and bologna (which have a weaker roster) are doing better than them.
however let's start from the defence.

First off is their backline. I really don't know if or how injured Diana is, but he NEEDS to be their RB. I saw them try to move him to LMF and Colombo to RB, and it was a disaster. Currently, Diana is out of the line-up and instead of having RB-Diana, CB-Di Loreto, CB-Natali, LB-Pisano like they were playing earlier in the season. Now I feel they are playing just about everyone out of position. RB-Di Loreto, CB-Natali, CB-Pisano, LB-Ogbonna. I thought Ogbonna was a natural(yet unseasoned) CB, and pisano is a natural attacking LB. Di Loreto looks really poor in space, and he is a decent CB. The most surprising thing to me is that Pisano has not looked bad at CB. His positional sense and quickness seem to make up for his lack of stature. I think it was a good idea to stop playing Pratali though. I don't think Dellafiore is the answer either.

i basically agree with everything u wrote. i guess Novellino is still trying (with no success so far) to find the best defensive formula, hence those continuous changes.. the defensive line is definitely their weak spot... but however, individually, the players aren't that bad. i mean, Natali has been fantastic in udine, di loreto isn't that good, but still i feel he could do much better than this, diana is a nice player, but he's not a proper fullback, imo..... the whole defensive package isn't that good, that's for sure, but still it's not worse than atalanta's (at least concerning the cbs... atalanta has very good fulbacks) or than catania's defence.... and yet those defences are doing much better than torino's one.

after 2 very good seasons at empoli, pratali badly disappointed in torino... he just doesn't seem the same player anymore. dellafiore is quality, but he's also pretty inconsistent and often commits silly mistake on the man marking (hence i don't think he was a good signing). i didn't even think pisano was a good buy, as i don't really rate him as a left back.... but then again i was really suprised by his performances as a cb lately (aswell as u, Jmg). of course it's still too early to express a fair judgement, but i guess he deserves a try as a cb (maybe in a 3 men defensive line?).
diana is a good player, no doubts about that. as an attacking sideback he's a consistant threat.... and it's marking is not that bad either. thing is, he badly lacks of positioning (wich of course effects his performances in terms of coverage).

this seems to me a new tendency in italian football... we don't seem to be able produce high quality fullbacks anymore. maggio, ferronetti, pasqual, diana, pasquale, dossena, vitale, balzaretti, de ceglie.... they're all wing backs, rather than fullbacks. they all have great offensive abilities, but quite poor sense of position. i see a lot of great wing backs growing in italy.... but none of em seems to be the new zambrotta or the new grosso, none of em seems to be complete as they are

and that's why i think it might be good for novellino to try a 3-5-2, like napoli's one. a 3 cbs set up (pisano-natali-ogbonna, maybe) with diana on the right and rubin on the left, both lined up 10 about meters ahead of the defensive line.
with this set up torino might get a better coverage of the box (with the 3-5-2 the cbs are much closer each others than with the classic 4-4-2). one of the cbs could (sometimes) detach himself from the line, pushing foward, pressing the ball carrier, with the others 2 staying deep on coverage.
and moreover this way, diana and rubin would be freed from the tipycal coverage duties of a proper fullback and could help the midfield keeping the possession line higher....
the thing is novellino (wich is a good coach i respect a lot) is very, very faihtful to his 4-4-2 interpretation.
and that's a shame to me, as i believe that with this line up diana and rubin could create a great partnership with abate and rosina (their overlaps could be damn effective as both rosina and abate like to cut on the centre).

and novellino also has the midfield to support such a system. barone and zanetti providing some hard work just behind the midfield line, and dzemaili (i've been impressed by this guy too, Jmg) lined up between those 2 guys, just a couple of meters ahead. and they would also have 1 good backup for each of them (samuel, vailatti and corini).

then there's the offensive set up. that's where torino has more options.
having amoruso and bianchi, novellino could choose every possible set up. bianchi and amoruso formed an amazing partnership in reggina... they just complete each others.... but unfortunately, since bianchi came back from his english experience, he doesn't seem the same (great) striker anymore....i'm still confident in his qualities though.
novellino could choose a 2 fowards system as those 2 guys could easily take care of the offensive phase just by themselves. this set up would be perfect for his 4-4-2. but that should imply a less mobile and pushing defensive line, especially on the flanks (wich would mean another rb instead of diana who is too offensive for this system, and that would be a shame). moreover this offensive set up would be "hungry of crosses", so no room for rosina (diana playing as right midfielder would be a better option as, unlike rosina, diana wouldn't cut on the centre and would provide all those crosses amoruso and bianchi need). no problem for abate, who would suit every possible formation imo (abate has a bright future!).

or maybe (and that would be my favourite option), novellino could display amoruso (or bianchi) as a lone foward with abate and rosina rambling around him. this offensive set up would suit perfectly the 3-5-2 system i was talking about before.... it could be like this.

---------------------------------amoruso
--------------------rosina----------------------abate

---------------------------------dzemaili
--------------------barone----------------------zanetti

------rubin-------------------------------------------------diana

--------------------pisano-------natali------ogbonna

i would really like to see torino playing this system. and even though bianchi should be the first option for the foward role, i'd put amoruso. amoruso is a very complete player, and even though he is a supporting striker, he could also play as a cf (with better results than bianchi, imo). afterall he played as a cf in reggina, since bianchi left.
bianchi played this system at lazio late last season (with pandev and rocchi moving around him). it worked pretty well, even though it forced bianchi to do quite a hard work. he had to lend support to pandev and rocchi. he was the benchmark foward, the target of the passes from the midfield, and his duty was to hold the ball (moving the ball possession line) and to distribute the ball to pandev or rocchi, who used to come from behind. that implied that bianchi didn't really score many goals, but still he was quite useful.

i think amoruso could do that job too... maybe not as well as bianchi could... but amoruso wouldn't offer any benchmark to the opposite defensive line, and that would make torino's offence much more mobile, unpredictable and tough to control.... at least imo.

concerning stellone, i admire his determination and hard work... but he just doesn't score enough to be a cf.... and even though he could be a decent solution working on the post (as u suggested), torino has better options (rosina or amoruso himself, with bianchi taking amoruso's spot as cf)... all in all i don't think stellone is serie a material to be honest.

one last note about rosina....he alone would be a good reason to choose the 3-5-2 rather than the 4-4-2. Not only that kid has an amazing talent (touch, technique, dribbling, shot, passing.. he really has it all).. what impress me most is his practical sense and his tactical awareness. he's not the usual talented winger\ss\advanced midfielder, who has absolutely no understanding of what should be his duty on the pitch (like quaresma)... neither he's the usual lazy winger who plays 5 good matches per season.
he always knows what's the right thing to do, when it's time to show his skills, and when it's better to go for a simple play. he doesn't try any tricks or fancy moves unless he realise those moves could be useful. and he doesn't "disappear" for 30 minutes from the match (as many talented wingers in europe often do).... he always gives everything he has for the whole match.
if i could choose between both quaresma and mancini (i mean both of them, altogether) and rosina, i would have no hesitations in picking rosina for my team.
once Sabac called carrozzieri the poor men's materazzi (wich was quite an appropriate and funny label)... well i'd say rosina is the poor men's c. ronaldo.

as u said, it's really a shame to see such a good team not being able to exploit is potential.... i hope novellino will find the right tactical formula before it's too late...... but not until palermo will play vs them, of course .

sorry for the long post.... as always

edit:

Anyway, Do you think gilardino will ever experience a big club again?

who knows. he's still pretty young afterall. but u also have to take into account that it's not so easy to leave a coach like prandelli.
besides, in 2010 the new "tv-rights money distribution agreement" will take place. this new formula could change completely serie a as we know it. it could decrease enourmously the gap between the top clubs and the mid- class clubs (i find it hard to describe fiorentina, udinese, lazio, genoa, napoli and samp as mid class clubs though).... however from 2010 on fiorentina might actually become a real top class club, aswell as milan, inter, juve and roma.... and that would allow gilardino to have another chance on the big european stage without moving to another club

 

[gigimarulla]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

---------------------------------amoruso
--------------------rosina----------------------abate

---------------------------------dzemaili
--------------------barone----------------------zanetti

------rubin-------------------------------------------------diana

--------------------pisano-------natali------ogbonna

i would really like to see torino playing this system.

I think is quite impossible,til football match will be 11 vs 11 and Novellino is so "catenacciaro" (how to translate this word in English? ) that he'll never start a match without a goalkeeper

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I think is quite impossible,til football match will be 11 vs 11 and Novellino is so "catenacciaro" (how to translate this word in English? ) that he'll never start a match without a goalkeeper

i guess that's what happens when u write a long post as quickly as u can and don't bother reading what u just wrote once u finished ...

i wanted to talk about a 3-5-2 display (napoli-like), with amoruso and bianchi upfront, and about a 3-4-3 display (udinese-like) with amoruso upfront, rosina and abate moving around him.... and of course dzemaili-barone at midfield (with no zanetti)......

... but i accidentally ended up mixing both formation with a revolutionary 3-5-3!
quite an appropriate smiley...

anyhow i guess "catenacciaro" is quite an universal word... afterall there's no translation for "catenaccio".

 

[jmg721]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Wow, please don't apologize for massively long posts. This is really some great analysis, of which I usually hear none of(in the states).

So would you say Diana's natural position is WB or SMF? I thought as a RB he was more invloved in the game, and he works so hard that he tends to get back in position. His positioning is definitely not worse than Colombo's.

I would prefer Di Loreto to Ogbonna in a back 3.

Great analysis of the current state of WB/SB's in Italy.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

theoretically di loreto would be the best choice, as ogbonna is left footed, so having him playing as an internal right cb isn't really great...
however i've been slightly disappointed by di loreto lately, and with a 3 men line, strenght becomes a more important factor than technique (in this case by technique i mean the ability of a defender to read the opponent play and react), so i'd go for ogbonna (ogbonna's physical impact on the game is much bigger than di loreto's one).

as for diana, during his palermo days, i got to know him pretty well (i mean, not the man, just the player). As u said he has indeed a very good "team work rate", and always moves back when the opponents get the ball.
but positioning isn't just about moving back, of course. it's also about adjusting your position according to the opponents play (once u are back "in line with the defence").... and he's quite poor in that department.

the sense of position is really a "sense": i mean it's something u "feel", a matter of sensibility... u either have it or u don't.... and diana definitely "doesn't".

to make it simple he's not like maggio (who just doesn't move back)... he's more like dossena (who moves back... and then takes the wrong position).

the sense of position of a sideback is something quite hard to spot watching football matches on tv. on the tv your vision of the game is always limited to what the cameras show and the cameras usually follow the ball.
so from the tv u can see the sideback moving back.... but then u usually aren't able to see what he does (how does he adjust his position) once he's back on the defensive line.
when u watch the match at the stadium instead, it's much easier to judge a player's positioning sense, as u can keep focusing yourself on a player, even when he's far from the ball (wich is what i did with diana).

he certainly has a better positioning than colombo... but afterall colombo is an "all-around awful player", and it doesn't take too much to be better than him in... well basically everything

 

[gigimarulla]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

i think that Diana played his best matches as WB in his Sampdoria's years...
he hasn't so many defensive qualities (or,at least,the quality that in Italy we use to look for in a defender)to be a really good RB but he has enough energy and speed to play as WB or "not so much offensive" Right midfielder in a 4-4-2 ,the role that we call "tornante" .
It's just my opinion off course

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

i think that Diana played his best matches as WB in his Sampdoria's years...
he hasn't so many defensive qualities (or,at least,the quality that in Italy we use to look for in a defender)to be a really good RB but he has enough energy and speed to play as WB or "not so much offensive" Right midfielder in a 4-4-2 ,the role that we call "tornante" .
It's just my opinion off course

yep, i agree with u. infact "tornante" is his real role.
on this concern i have to say i feel the italian football dictionary is much more complete than the english.
i mean, in english u can talk about "fullbacks" or "wingbacks". we have "terzino", "tornante", "esterno basso", "fluidificante" and so on.... it's much easier to describe a sideback in italian coz every name describes a different kind of fullback

 

[gigimarulla]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

and i agree with you zio about the "italian football dictionary"....
the only words i dont like are "esterno basso",i really hate them.
they sound like the horrible " ripartenza" instead of the classic " contropiede" ,just ugly neologisms used by some Trainers when they comment the matches on TV ,trying to show that they're not so ignorant as we think because they use "special" words to say a common thing.
A "terzino" is and will always be a "terzino" and not an "esterno basso" in my opinion,like an "ala" or a "tornante" will never be an "esterno alto"

 

[jmg721]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

but still they can't deliver... and it gets even more weird when u consider how teams like catania and bologna (which have a weaker roster) are doing better than them.
however let's start from the defence.

I feel that there are 4 highly underrated/underdiscussed aspects of Catania this season.(again I apologize if this has been previously discuss, as I have yet to go back and read the last 86 pages...but will)

1. Bizzarri - He may be in my opinion the best Italian Keeper non Serie A followers wouldn't know. Even with his poor show of handling in the coppa match v. Juve, he has shown the ability to make amazing saves with his agility and reactions. He has cooled off a bit, but I feel he has been great.

2. Silvestre - I gotta admit, starting to love this guy. His arial ability and speed has made him a very good CB this season. He is another "gritty"/hard-working player who never gives up. Not the most technically sound, but is grately improving that aspect. He seems to read the game well and has defenitely been the best defender for Catania in this campaign.

3. Carboni - I think he is one of the better pure DMF's in the Serie A this season. He is as stiff as a log, but can really read the game well, and is a force to have to go through in before you get to that back line.

4. Mascara - Obviously a lot of people know who he is, but I feel the reason for their success has been where they have been playing him. He has not been playing a standard CF role by any means. They have allowed him freedom to go back into the midfield to retreive balls, to get the attack going. Even though they have some really poor CF's talent and experience-wise he has been the glue to the front 3.

These are the 4 players that I feel can mostly be contributed to most of Catania achievements this campaign. Honorable mentions have to go to the play of Ledesma and Baiocco as well.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Catania and Bologna are my surprise packages of the year. Even though I hate MIhajlovic, hes been doing well in keeping his squad compact and tight. Di Vaio is scoring like his Parma days and Antonioli is playing like his Roma days. Catania on the other hand, although in a rough patch, were playing great football with Miramoto, Spinesi and Mascara as if it was Ronnie - Kaka - Pato. I'm quite sure in a few years time Zenga will be at a bigger club - this guy has potential.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

In fact, if Ancelotti ever leaves, I'd love to see Zenga up there

that's even more surprising than Zeem saying he wouldn't mind loosing pirlo. what's going on with u milanisti theese days!?!

jokes apart, i do respect Zenga. he worked hard to reach serie a and i think he deserved it.... but i can't honestly say i fancy his football.

it's true, their upfront trio is fun to watch, but that's up to the quality of the likes of mascara and martinez, who are their real stars.

once Caressa said something quite spot on about Catania. he said "Zenga realised that a physical approach to the game always pays dividends"
zenga's catania infact isn't really that complicated and perfect clockwork it may seem.

his gameplan is actually pretty simple. the key is "intensity over quality". zenga has a lot of hard workers at midfield: tedesco, biagianti, baiocco, colucci, carboni.....they're all pretty good at disrupting the opponent's plays, but none of em is a real playmaker. this season they have ledesma wich is quite good at that, but still u wouldn't say ledesma is their "core" (i'd rather say biagianti and carboni are their core).... and this is still something more than last season (infact last season edusei was the only one with "playmaking" duties, and he's not really a proper playmaker).

moreover zenga often doesn't mind lining up all theese defensive midfielders altogheter (especially in away fixtures against top clubs), wich turns their midfield in some sort of a second defensive line.

catania's mantra this season is - short distance between the defensive line and the midfield, the defense lined up "on the same line" with a zone coverage set up, 2 defensive midfielders on zonal marking (usually biagianti and carboni) and another defensive midfielder (tedesco or baiocco) on man marking.

it's quite a conservative gameplan (and arguably the most defensive-oriented gameplan in the whole league).

the end result is still fun to watch, as their intensity is pretty "british-style" and their counters are extremely quick and effective (the matches against inter, roma and juve proved it)....., but it's still far from being among the best tactical imprint in serie a.
i mean, i wouldn't mind having 20 teams playing palermo's football or napoli's or lazio's or cagliari's or genoa's football.... but having 20 teams playing catania's football, that would be atrocious.

i admit zenga is doing an amazing job with the "human material" they gave him...... but allegri, ballardini, beretta, giampaolo and del neri are on another planet imo (let alone gasperini).
the tactical imprint zenga gave to catania might be good for a low class team.... but definitely couldn't be tolerated in a big club... Baldini's catania, Marino's catania, those were really 2 great teams with a sophisticated and attractive tactical imprint.

as for the players u mentioned, jmg, bizzarri is indeed a good keeper and silvestre is arguably the leader of the defensive line.... all in all he's a good compromise between technique and physical strenght (aswell as stovini, but so far silvestre has done much better than stovini, imo). very good heading abilities, more than decent vision, and quite a good long pass accuracy (wich is vital for their counters). i would never trade silvestre with bovo, but i wouldn't mind having him in my team either.
as for carboni is an honest hard worker, with a great stamina, but i kinda prefer biagianti to him.
their gems however are definitely martinez and mascara. without em morimoto, paolucci, plasmati and spinesi wouldn't be as effective as they were so far, coz, since vargas left, zenga's offensive phase relies mostly on those 2 guys.

anyhow stef, there are dozens of coaches i would rather pick as ancelotti's successor at milan....
besides... an inter legend coaching milan?

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Ben, ignore my last post, I wrote that at 2am after coming back from the pub! The true successor of my wishes is Marco Van Basten

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Ben, ignore my last post, I wrote that at 2am after coming back from the pub! The true successor of my wishes is Marco Van Basten

nevermind, u're talking to a guy who picked 12 players for a possible starting 11 less than 24 hours ago

however, wouldn't u prefere donadoni or gasperini to van basten?

just ugly neologisms used by some Trainers when they comment the matches on TV ,trying to show that they're not so ignorant as we think because they use "special" words to say a common thing.
A "terzino" is and will always be a "terzino" and not an "esterno basso" in my opinion,like an "ala" or a "tornante" will never be an "esterno alto"

fair enough Gigi

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

As much as I like Donadoni, on a human level I can't see him being much of an improvement from Ancelotti. With all these players with egos and fat contracts, I think we need a motivator-style coach, who is also tactically competent. Van Basten is new, so he's not very proven, but he has huge love from Milan fans and has got his teams to play quite well. I also heard rumors that Leonardo was training to become a coach, I'd LOVE to see him as a Milan manager, similar to how Guardiola is the Barca coach. If Billy succeeds some time in the near future, I can see him being a contender too.

Realistically, I can see Donadoni being our manager in the future, even if I dont feel to good about it. Benitez has been reportedly disagreeing with new contract terms, so I can also see him being a candidate, a manager i'd be curious to see, but I fear he might be too similar to Ancelotti.