Arsenal Thread

I said here before a couple of times, Szcz is not bad, he's full of potential but he's prone to errors, inexperienced, sometimes too cocky, and most importantly: he's not ready! Keepers aged 21 are usually too green. This is an issue completely neglected by Wenger. Since Lehmann we don't have a decent keeper and he never addressed that. Szczesny came through the academy and our other options (Fabianski and Mannone) are not even Premier League level IMO.

It doesn't bode well for the keeper position at Arsenal that Szczesny is fully aware he walks into the first team. And this is a problem that happens in many other places in this club. People are too comfortable.

Wenger is lenient with most players' shortcomings, and rewarded some people who never achieved anything with fat contracts (now we struggle to offload them). It's all very nice and easy, many players got very much comfortable.

And this goes for the upper level in the club too. Wenger is too comfortable, he knows his job is secure, that the board likes him and won't sack him. He is allowed to rest on his laurels (although I don't think it's in his nature). But the board definitely sees him as a cashcow who buys some bargain players under a million pounds and sells them for more than £15m.

And finally the owner is comfortable. Too comfortable. Silent Stan doesn't even show up much at the club, he most certainly only wants the profits coming in, and Arsene's the man.

It's time for fans to make themselves heard.
 
First half was terrible, although for the first 5 mins I thought they were going to give it a right go....then they scored and it knocked us and then the second.

The second half we were much better, controlling parts and passin much better wih some lovely moves. The question is why can't we play this well from the start? It keeps happening.

I can handle to losing to Bayern, if we had played like we did in the second half all game and still lost 1-3 then I could at least say they tried all they could, but that first half performance just makes me frustrated. We could have got more from the game but there is a barrier with our team and I don't know if we will ever get over it, it's happening too often.

Hopefully we can get a performance of Milan proportions when we got the 3 goals in the return leg. But I think Bayern are much stronger and one of the favourites for the cup so it will never happen.

Again it's just annoying because the second half shows that this team can play much better but just don't.
 
Have i seen a completely different match than most of the posters here ?

I will write about what i 've seen.

I saw a very good Arsenal until that first goal. That ball was unstoppable, not a single GK in the world could have stopped it, just look at the pace and the swerve on that ball...unstoppable.

And then we saw what is typical for Arsenal...all went wrong...players just seem able to overcome setbacks. With Arteta-Wilshere and Cazorla on paper Arsenal have a midfield that is as good Bayern's if not better...

Then came the second goal: a good stop from the GK, but he had the bad luch that ball fell before the feet of Thomas Muller: 2-0. IMO the GK was not to blame. From Bayern's first goal on it was a match between man and boys.

At that moment i thought Bayern would humiliate Arsenal.

But no, Arsenal started the second half really well and scored a fluke goal (Neuer did not make a mistake on that goal, look at the way the corner comes to Podolski, this ball was undefendable, that is why i call it a fluke). From then on it seemed Arsenal could have turned the tables, but Bayern again were kind of lucky. That third goal was an even bigger fluke than the Arsenal goal...of course at that moment the match was played.

Did Arsenal play a bad match ? No.
They played against the second best team in Europe. IMO only Barcelona are better than Bayern. Arsenal was able to score a goal against this fantastic team...that is quite remarkable since this is the first goal Bayern conceded since december the 14th.

Of course there are worrying things: the problems of this team are clearly mental. They started well, but at the first setback they disintegrate completely. The star of this (Wilshere) played a very bad match. Somebody applauds the fact that he was crying after the match, i hope for his sake that he was crying because his own completely inept performance. This guy is supposed to be the leader of the team and he was completely invisible.
Is this a bad team ? No.
Will this team win silverware ? I'm pretty sure they never will.
Is it because they lack quality ? I don't think so.
What is their problem ? Their problem is mental...they don't have enough winners in the team...
Arsenal should buy Jovetic who is ayoung player that plays wonderfull week after week for Fiorentina. He will become one of the world's top 5 players in a couple of years.

And to all the people who say that Arsenal is a proper led club. Yesterday they lost against a real proper led club. A club that is partly owned by the fans, a club that buys big players but above all gives youth players a chance and succeeds to unearth gems from the youth categories for almost 50 years now (from Beckenbauer to Thomas Muller must be almost 50 years, in that period they unearthed players like Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Sepp Maier, Paul Brietner, Ulli Hoeness, Dieter Hoeness, Rumenigge, Klaus Augenthaler, Stefan Effenberg, Basler, Scholl, Schweinsteiger, Thomas Muller, and i forget dozens of others). On top of that if you look at the list of players Bayern bought from other German clubs at a young age, then the list becomes even more impressive. I will only mention two players like that: Lothar Mathaeus and Oliver Kahn. Bayern never needed a sugar daddy to do this. I've never been a praticular fan of this club, there was even a time i didn't like them at all, because somehow they always ended up winning no matter how bad they played (the ECI final against Leeds comes to my mind), but what they have achieved and how they have done it is really impressive. Most English clubs could learn a lot from Bayern's history. One of the things i also like is the fact that the club is led by former players.

Compare this to the boardroom of the 'proper led' club that is Arsenal...Arsenal's boardroom doesn't seem to care about football, it looks more like Wall Street (i know i'm exagerating).

Don't blame Wenger for what is happening and don't blame the players that they will be eliminated by Bayern. For every neutral fan, that is the most logical thing in the world. Off all the knock-out matches in this years CL, to me this was the one that stood out as the most uneven match-up... This was the only one where i was quite sure that in the end Bayern would qualify (even if i thought Arsenal would win the home match).

You can blame Wenger for what happened against Blackburn, but not for this defeat...
 
not watched highlights at all but i got to back Szcz. he is imo one of the best GK in the league. top 5 at least and is better then united GK who makes far more mistakes then Szcz . it wasnt long ago Szcz helped us bag 3 points in a league game a few weeks ago.

come on , ok say he did had a bad game last night. so what? compare that to his last 10 games? his last 10 games he has been superb and solid. seriously u cannot judge and slate a GK after 1 in 20 games a gk does poor. that is not fair. like any outfield player including messi. they all have bad games once in a while and u never see the world class outfield players getting slated and labeled as shit.
 
jonneymendoza said:
not watched highlights at all but i got to back Szcz. he is imo one of the best GK in the league. top 5 at least and is better then united GK who makes far more mistakes then Szcz . it wasnt long ago Szcz helped us bag 3 points in a league game a few weeks ago.
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not even near him buddy , you're just lying to yourself telling this , that guy isnt for a team like Arsenal he should be ok for a wigan , west ham but not arsenal who play CL and its on top 4

united GK is class btw ;)
 
A simple solution for Arsenal`s problems, change everything they did from 4 yrs ago. I think from systems to players position on the pitch. I don`t expect Arsenal to beat top clubs , but I keep remembering the 06 CL season. We were disciplined and well organized, we seem to get reckless last night and a cool head is level thinking.
 
odiboni said:
If you watch Lazio's games, you can tell that a top goalkeeper can make a difference.
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My point was that it was a pretty damn obvious observation. Let me paint you another obvious picture;

An average team has a world class goalkeeper that makes a few saves that other keepers might not have made -> he made a difference.

An average team has a world class central defender that keeps the defense together and the team concedes less goals -> he made a difference.

An average team has a world class midfielder that creates a lot of chances that helps the team score more goals -> he made a difference.

An average team has a world class striker that creates and scores a lot of goals -> he made a difference.

My point is that a keeper is not any more pivotal for success than anybody else, even though it's a popular phrase. If you reverse the whole situation, you also see that only one player can be the downfall of an otherwise strong team, which is more often the case. Per Mertesacher is a very weak link in the Arsenal defense, for example.

Before a keeper can shine, a defensive player must make a mistake and without mistakes, there wouldn't be many goals in football. That is also why a 0-0 match can be incredibly entertaining from a football analytical point of view, if you appreciate good defending that is.
 
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beachryan said:
Is Arsene not one of the best managers in world football?
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He might have been in contention as one of the worlds best in the first half of his tenure, but I'm not sure that is the case now. The game changes, tactics advance, new styles of football come to the fore and managers have to be dyanmic to adapt to this. Even the greatest managers in history have often not evolved. Brian Clough was probably the most sucessful manager in English history taking a provincial side from the second division to winning the European Cup two years in a row. But by the time Nottingham Forest were relegated in the early 1990s the game had totally passed him by. Even Johan Cryuff at Barcelona went from winning La Liga 4 times in a row to then drifting down to 3rd and 4th, but more tellingly in Europe he went from having a team that won the European Cup in 1992 to a team that was absolutely tactically annihilated in the 1994 final. His team lost by the biggest margin in over 30 years (Steaua also lost 4-0 to Milan a few years earlier but the Steaua team was a lot weaker than Milan so it was more on ability than tactics). I think the game has moved on and Wenger hasn't. He did really advance the standard of football in the UK in his first few years and brought in a wealth of ideas (diet, proper training plans, more detailed medical examinations) that English football had generally shunned. But now he still persists with bizzare ideas even when the team is ovbiously suffering from them. He sucessfully "converted" Henry to a striker, but he seems to use this a blueprint to continually try and convert other players, constantly playing them in the wrong positions. We've seen Wallcott play as an out and out striker when there were other more sutiable options (like Chamack, Giroud even the invisible man Park). Vermalen is a pure center back but Wenger has him masquerading as a full back at times. Arshavin was the best player at Euro 2008 and the key man for Zenit when they beat teams like Bayern, Leverkusen, Marseilles and Villareal to win the UEFA/Europa in 2008. When he first joined Arsenal he was played in his proper position and used to smash through teams like a digger (away at Anfield being the prime example) but Wenger ruined him as a player. Instead of playing him behind a striker he stuck him out on the wing or even played him as an out and out striker on his own.

Coming 4th may not look like a great achievement in isolation, but does anyone honestly believe that Wenger wouldn't win the league with Man City's squad? Or does anyone honestly believe that Rafa or Mancini would have Arsenal competing with the 2 Manchester clubs? There's nothing in any of their careers to suggest this to be the case.?
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To a degree it's guess work to say that if he would win the league at Man City, would City win the league with Yaya Touré at full back and David Silva as a lone striker, because sometimes Wenger's selections have been akin to that. If he had been in charge, even with limitless money, would he have designed the squad in the same way it is now? I doubt it, for instance a player like De Jong (who imo City are missing a lot) would never have been brought by him, he simply doesnt believe in combative midfielders. The last time he signed a player resembling that was Gilberto Silva (and it's a bit of a stretch calling him combative) but his discarded him early. Occasionally there have been other youth players who have been molded into this role (Alex Song) but he doesnt believe in this type of player. Would he also have brought three of the best out and out strikers in the league (Tevez, Agüero and Dzeko)? Almost certainly not if his Arsenal days are anything to go by. Instead we might have seen Wenger's Man City raid the world's supply of wingers or second-strikers (he'd have probably signed 8 players like James Rodriguez, Cazorla (when he left Malaga), maybe Lavezzi (great player but not a pure striker), Nene, Diego Capel. As an aside you say that there is nothing in Benitez and Mancini's CVs to suggest they could win the league with Arsenal's squad. I partly agree with this, the squad is so chronically unbalanced that I dont think even the best manager in the modern game (say Hiddink) could win a league with it. But to be fair to Mancini he took a Lazio team that was financially a lot weaker than this Arsenal team, it was literally hemorrhaging money and players, and got them into the Champions League in 2004 and he won 3 leagues in 4-5 years at Inter (although obviously this was immediately after the Calciopoli scandal). Also the squad does still have some good players. Wilshire is exceptionally talented and possibly one of the best central midfielders in the league, Veramelen is very good center back (tho he has wobbled a bit of late as his confidence has ebbed away) there are lots of small pacey attacking players at the club and some of them are actually fairly promising (Chamberlain, Cazorla, Walcott - as a wide player).

It's boring and it's annoying for fans of certain clubs (and leagues) but it's all about money. Wenger outperforms almost every other manager at elite clubs in terms of squeezing the most out of his budget. Arsenal don't have the means to sit alongside Bayern, Chelsea, City, United and the 2 Spanish clubs - so why does everyone expect them to?
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Arsenal actually have a bigger wage outlay than Bayern, financially I think they are probably in similar positions. But if you look at European teams I would say that Arsenal are not outperforming Milan, Shakthar, Porto and Dortmund (although their coefficient is screwed) yet Arsenal are probably as strong or stronger than all those teams finanically. Milan have had to sell star players year on year (Kaká, Thiago Silva, Ibrahimovic), Shaktar just sold a player for over €30mln and his replacement only cost €11m, Porto seem to sell half their squad every summer, Dortmund seem to give away their best players (Sahin, Kagawa probably Lewandoski) to the elite clubs in Europe. As you say Arsenal might not be able to compete with the big spenders in the Premier League (City, United, Chelsea) but they are at the point where Spurs and the perennially penniless Everton look like passing them.

Ultimately it's a tough call to say if Wenger should go or not, a lot of it depends on who could be brought in and I dont know if there are that many credible candidates who would either be better or would take the job. He has done good things for the club but Arsenal were a sucessful club before him and his "credit" is starting to ebb away and he (and indeed anyone at any club) shouldnt be untouchable if the club dont perform. I think a lot of it might be down to finance, but Arsenal (and Wenger) always say there is money to spend. I have my doubts as to if this is true (or to put it another way I dont think Kroenke wants to spend, but instead just wants the club to be a cash cow, hence usually making transfer profit each year). And it seems a lot of the players/ex-players dont seem to think the ambition or the finances are there, but if Wenger keeps saying there is money available and he refuses to spend the money then it reflects badly on him.
 
Arsenal did start the match brightly, most players seemed determined to make it up for the fans after the Blackburn embarrassment. But Bayern are confident, cold and ruthless. If there was anything like a pressure from Arsenal at the start, Bayern knew how to deal with it and quickly took control of the match.

After Bayern's first goal, our players were in shambles. This gives us a measure of confidence levels and how mentally feeble they can be. And what's more annoying is that "mental strength" is one of the most used words in the Wenger lexicon. Yet I've always though that the young players from Wenger's 3rd team base ( that started from 2006 onwards) has always been fragile in that aspect.

To me it looks like Wenger is clearly not using his resources and players to the best of their potential. We're not even playing to our strengths.
We have a powerful forward in Giroud who could have easily started against Bayern. Instead we had Walcott up front and long balls hurled at him - and it took 70 minutes of football for Wenger to change this. After Giroud came on, Walcott went to the right flank and in their first combination Giroud almost scored with a volley. No wonder!!

Cazorla was moved to the left wing after Podolski got subbed. But we can't keep doing this. Is Wenger really gonna start using Cazorla on the wings? Really??? Bayern's 3rd goal happened because Vermaelen was left alone to deal with Robben and Lahm. Cazorla didn't track back.
Next thing we know Cazorla will be crucified like Arshavin. But what the f*ck do you expect?? You're playing the guys out of position! We're playing an awful LOT of people out of position in this team.

The players we've got aren't being best used and the money the club has available is not being used.
Our assets aren't being used to make us better.
To me that's not good management.
Sorry, doesn't matter how many good things someone achieved, but this is a ruthless business. Wenger has been insisting on the same stuff for years now, and although it's clearly not working, there are no signs he's about to change anything.
Off you go Wenger, that's enough.
 
Great post by edmundo, as always! :TU:

Yes bebo, I agree the system has to be changed. I'm not a fan of Wenger's 4-3-3.
I am a fan of Barcelona's 4-3-3, but that's a different story. We don't have the players and quality to emulate that.
 
beachryan said:
Is Arsene not one of the best managers in world football? As everyone except fans of certain clubs realise, the only real way to predict results is to look at money. For his entire career Arsene's teams have over-achieved compared to what he has to spend.

Coming 4th may not look like a great achievement in isolation, but does anyone honestly believe that Wenger wouldn't win the league with Man City's squad? Or does anyone honestly believe that Rafa or Mancini would have Arsenal competing with the 2 Manchester clubs? There's nothing in any of their careers to suggest this to be the case.

It's boring and it's annoying for fans of certain clubs (and leagues) but it's all about money. Wenger outperforms almost every other manager at elite clubs in terms of squeezing the most out of his budget. Arsenal don't have the means to sit alongside Bayern, Chelsea, City, United and the 2 Spanish clubs - so why does everyone expect them to?

In the past few seasons most of the above teams have easily strengthened their teams to the tune of at least 200m euros or so. While Arsenal have posted a profit. I mean, what do people expect?!
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Not for a good few years, no, I don't think so. At least he's underperformed.

I'd expect a trophy or 2 within 8 years. Utd, Chelsea and City haven't won every trophy in that period.
 
In the last 8 seasons, the FA Cup has been won by: Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, City and Portsmouth. So 'Arrys now defunct Portsmouth aside, it's not exactly been small plucky clubs winning that trophy.

The other trophy is the league cup, which in that time has been won by Chelsea, United, Spurs, LFC and Birmingham - who beat Arsenal in the final. Arsenal have actually been to two finals in that time.

So in the past 8 years of domestic trophies, only Portsmouth and Birmingham (who beat Arsenal in the final) are the 'other' clubs. All the other trophies have been won by 'big' clubs.

Now I do believe that Arsenal should probably have grabbed at least 1 of those, but they were a Scezcny mind-f*ck from doing just that, just 2 years ago.
 
Rentboy said:
Great post by edmundo, as always! :TU:

Yes bebo, I agree the system has to be changed. I'm not a fan of Wenger's 4-3-3.
I am a fan of Barcelona's 4-3-3, but that's a different story. We don't have the players and quality to emulate that.
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you think we should stick to 4-5-1 ?
 
But aside from those two finals they havent really been that close - say there are the two domestic cups and the CL that's three possible finals per year and in theory the league too, 4 competitions a year eight years so that's 32 chances (if you take the CL out of that then it's still 24). Yet they've only been close twice - if you call close making the final or finishing a close second. In the league they've finished 3rd or 4th every year since, what 2005? Chelsea, City and Man Utd have won the league in that time, but even Liverpool have finished a close second. If you look at the FA Cup finalists in that time you have teams like Cardiff, West Ham, Portsmouth twice, Stoke, Everton making the final - Arsenal have made a semi once and have gone out to teams like Sunderland, Stoke, Bolton and Blackburn (twice if you count this year). Even in the League Cup which is potentially the most winnable trophy for Arsenal, they have gone out to teams like Wigan and Burnley and lost 5-1 to Spurs. This year they went out to Bradford a team that sits in the middle of the 4th tier of English Football, despite fielding a strong team. But while it was a surprise it together with Blackburn at the weeked wasnt the massive shock it would have been 10 years ago because Arsenal have become a bit of a soft touch and a little bit flakey. And it probably would have been before Wenger too (I can remember Arsenal losing to Wrexham in 91 or 92 and that seemed like more of a shock than Bradford). It's not just the fact they havent won stuff for 8 years but more the fact they have hardly really come close in that time in any competition. I dont think that's really good enough for a club of Arsenal's stature. They are one of the grand clubs of England and have been in the mix for trophies since the days of Herbert Chapman, Charlie George winning the Cup and Micheal Thomas putting it up for grabs at Anfield. Of course there is no devine right to win things but most involved at Arsenal must feel a bit underwhelmed by the last 8 years. I dont think its been as expected, and when you look around at the trophy banner at the Emirates Stadium and see the big gap they left to fill in with future trophies, well it looks like a bit of a downturn.
 
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I enjoy your posts, edmundo but have you ever heard of paragraphs? :P

The point about Wenger not moving with the times is the most salient for me. He was originally known as an innovator but we've seen little of that for almost a decade now.
 
bebo said:
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you think we should stick to 4-5-1 ?
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I think this 4-3-3 of ours sometimes shapes into a 4-5-1 during a match (when we are undergoing a lot of pressure for example). So the wingers drop back to midfield, you see?
It's very dynamic, but the problem is that we don't have players who do the defending. Our wingers don't do much defending.
Again, many people have crucified Arshavin, but I don't see how it is different with the other players.

In fact, even the guys in the midfield are not very good at defending: Ramsey, Arteta, Diaby, Rosicky, Cazorla, Wilshere...
There is an obvious need for a defensive midfield since Song left. But Wenger chose to neglect that too.

Ideally we would have a midfielder with a little more bite, to help defence and cover for overlaps (like Gilberto did).

With the players we have in the squad now, we could have a 4-4-2. One centre forward advanced upfront (Giroud) and a skilful and creative striker right behind him making the connection between midfield and attack. This second striker could be Cazorla, Walcott or Arshavin. In fact, this was the ideal position for the Russian, he created mayhem playing with freedom there.

I don't think Arshavin turned shit overnight, nor that he's a lazy bastard like most Arsenal supporters think. He's been repeatedly exposed to an area of the game where he will struggle. In the wings he could create a lot with the ball, but at tracking back and defending he is a disaster.
I think after a while his confidence was completely shattered.

Another example of confidence being shattered: our defenders. Look at them individually, and you'll see they are all good players, they should be a strong defence. Mertesacker, Kocielny and Vermaelen are all much better than they look like now. But they will play worse and worse with their confidence completely shattered. They receive almost no aid from midfield and wingers. And what's worse, our fullbacks LOVE attacking don't they?
Dammit, I wouldn't like to be on Arsenal defenders' shoes.

Football today is very dynamic and some teams change their shape to everyone standing behind the ball, and when they recover possession and stretch back.
Arsenal doesn't have the same commitment to defensive play. But, with this 4-3-3 we don't do what Barcelona does either, which is pressing strongly to win the ball high up the pitch. So we're in between things, in a no man's land.

Defending should be a collective job for the whole team. But Arsenal is terribly unbalanced and what we see from our defence is what you could expect from anyone being so exposed.

I think Wenger adopted this system we currently have at the start of 2009-10 season. This season is the 4th since we have that going on. The first season was encouraging, with Fabregas in inspirational form, but it quickly went pear shaped afterwards.

Wenger knows what's happening from the inside, better than any expert, football analyst, pundit, journalist or what have you... but he's not doing a thing to change this. Which fits his profile of an extremely stubborn individual.

I am in disbelief as I watch this unravel. I lost faith in Wenger, really. He's way past his best.

PS: Look how Barcelona was denied by Milan today. I can't ever imagine Arsenal being able of doing that under Wenger.
 
Yh ! I think AW is like Jesus facing Pilate. "What do you want me to do with this Jesus they called the Messiah"

Any decision we either remove or promote! The faith in Wenger is wilting like a leaf. I`m convinced, he`s too stubborn to move and will see his contract out next summer.
 
We have to win the next few games, especially the Spurs one now, otherwise there is going to be complete fan unrest. If I squint my eyes I can see lots of fans outside the Emirates chanting things that are not very nice.

Wenger has dug himself into a hole and the only thing he can do until the Summer is use what he has as well as he can, this will be the ultimate test for him. If he fails, then I can see him leaving.....unless he and the board come out and declare much more money being spent and their ambitions raising much much higher, then there is no other option really.

They basically need to tell us that they see where the problems are and are going to do everything they can to get Arsenal challenging on all fronts again. Then they need to show that they meant it and do it.
 
I would really like Wenger to try out a Juve-esque 3-5-2, something like this:

Sczczesny​
Mertesacker​
Koscielny​
Vermaelen​

Sagna​
Diaby​
Monreal​
Cazorla​
Wilshere​

Walcott​
Giroud​


Sorry for the gaps. :P
 
Fucking hell, to let a game go like this is unacceptable. No excuses for that. I've had enough of Wenger's tactics!
 
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