Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Hey, I know they cannot be compared right now because they're on totally different levels..
But Messi is only 22 and still can improve a lot.. When Messi will be at his peak, thre'll surely be room for the comparison

LOL! bella ale!

before i even start, since i realise my longest posts can be utterly boring to go through, those who aren't interested in the de rossi-palombo-brighi conversation might well skip this part of the post and start reading from the "----------"

rfu, i'm not quite sure what u mean when u say the likes of perrotta, brighi and zanetti have no specific talent. they are hugely talented. perrotta has been one of the greatest mezz'ala in the world in the mid 2000s. zanetti is an extremely talented metodista (ask any juventus fan if they wouldn't pay twice the price they payed for melo, just to have a fit zanetti back).
brighi is one of the most important assets in the most talented midfield in italy.
it's not perrotta's or brighi's hardwork and commitment that allows them to perform with world class players. it's their talent, their skill.

About De Rossi, simply put, he is at his best on the defensive end. Earlier in his career he was equally as good on both ends but over last few years he seems to have really focused on his positioning and defensive instincts and thusly set aside his attacking skills

since roma bought pizarro he was asked to play as a metodista.... and in 1 season he became the most valuable metodista in europe..... but it's not like he doesn't venture forward anymore, mate. he's scored 10 goals this season.... no metodista would even dream to score so many goals. i guess that says a lot.

If you strip away his speed and strength, then you can't say for definite that he's better than Brighi, especially going forward, where Brighi is more of an expert at breaking through the defensive line with well timed runs.

that's because brighi now plays as a mezz'ala (a la perrotta). brighi doesn't play as a mediano anymore (and he never was a metodista). de rossi was the most promising mezz'ala in europe when he started out. and u can actually realise how good he would be as a mezz'ala, by considering how many goals he still manages to score playing from a deeper position and in a defensive role.
besides, there's more than strenght and speed in de rossi's game.
he commands the midfield with a personality, an authority, that u would expect from a +30 years old veteran.... and the craziest thing is that he does it since he was 21!! since injuries kept totti away from the pitch, he became the real leader of the team. and personality is more important than any other skill for a central midifielder.
besides what u said is also really unfair. even "stripping away his speed and strenght", daniele still belongs to a different level. daniele is definitely on par with brighi in timing his incursions (offensive positioning), but he's much better than him in every other department (shooting accuracy and power, plays construction, passing game, defensive positioning, marking, tackling).
and it's also extremely unfair to compare brighi to de rossi, because that comparison would make brighi look like an average player, while that's absolutely not true. brighi is a sweet player, with lots of talent. perrotta is the right benchmark for him.
let's just put it like this: brighi is a stepped down version of perrotta, exactly like palombo is a "human version" of de rossi (saying palombo is a stepped down version of de rossi is just unfair..... palombo is infact an awesome player..... it's de rossi who is "beyond awesome").

Certainly Cambiasso and Palombo are as good as De Rossi, only their physical attributes (size, pace, build) don't allow them to carry the ball or stand out as much in midfield. In fact, when you consider how slow and weak they are, relatively speaking, they could be considered even better metodista's than De Rossi.

not really. even though they're both metodistas, i wouldn't compare cambiasso to de rossi. u see cambiasso is a pure metodista. one of the very best in the world. palombo and de rossi instead are something different. they're more "complete" (or versatile, if u prefere) than esteban. that doesn't make them better than cambiasso. it just makes them different.
as for the palombo-de rossi comparison, that's definitely spot on. but de rossi wins the matchup. Palombo is a fantastic player. he has the same huge personality, leadership and impact on the team de rossi has; he has the same ability to give structure to the team with his tidy passing game that daniele has; he has the same ability in timing his incursions and finding the opening for a shot. he's also as excellent as daniele is in covering and marking......but
although they both have a great shot, de rossi scores more goals.... and although palombo's tackling skills are definitely above average (even for a metodista's standards) daniele is better than him in this department aswell.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

moving back to the campionato. i have to say i don't have the balls to venture in the "predictions area", rfu. the way this season is unfolding makes it impossible to make a single week prediction, nevermind a long term one.

infact, one very nice thing i noticed about serie a in the last 3 seasons is the change of mood of the "small teams".
u see, the italian typical "cynical practical sense" always brought our small teams to "tirare i remi in barca" at the end of the season.
tirare i remi in barca is an italian expression (and the fact that there isn't even a fitting translation for this expression in english says a lot about some cultural differences between us). a very rough translation might be "just give it up and go with the flow". let me make an example. take sampdoria's last 2 matches.... they lost with bari and draw with cagliari.
this is a paradox for italian football. because both bari and cagliari are safe now.... they're clearely out of the relegation battle, and they're also unlikely to reach the europa league zone. most important, they already achieved their preseason goal (avoid relegation). so, according to the "italian thinking" they shouldn't bother anymore. at the end of a season, small teams which have nothing to prove anymore usually face a very predictable loosing streak, due to their lack of interest (wich used to make some april\may serie a matches extremely boring).
i know it's sad and it'll probably sound crazy to an english or an american, but, as i said many times, us italians don't have much of a sport culture unfortunately.

anyhow, in the last 3 seasons, something very weird happened. small teams keep playing their football at their best till the very end of the season, regardless their position in the table. and since our small teams actually play some damn good football (cagliari, parma, bari are much more entertaining to watch than the likes of inter, milan and juve, for instance), it gets damn hard to beat them, when they show u they aren't gonna hand u the 3 points withouth a fight.

that makes life damn hard for top teams (like inter, roma and milan) and for midclass teams (like palermo, fiorentina, genoa, samp, napoli)... but it also makes things much more interesting and unpredictable.....

for instance, u predicted a palermo win next week. well, no need to say i hope u're right, but it's gonna be damn hard to get even just 1 point from the catania match. u obviously know about the huge rivalry between palermo and catania.... well we haven't won in catania in years, and this time will be even more difficult for 2 reasons.
1- catania need to grab as many points as they can get in home fixtures if they wanna stay out of the relegation zone.
2- they know that a single win against us might well compromise palermo's great ride towards the champions league..... and people in catania would LOVE to become the main responsibles of palermo's missed champions league chance.

finally a look at the table
inter 63
roma 62
milan 60
palermo 51
napoli 48
juve 48
samp 48
fiorentina 44
genoa 44

roma is back on inter's ass and inter's schedule is a lot tougher than roma's one... wich means that for the first time in years we have a real challenge for the title
right behind the top 3, palermo managed to put some distance between himself and the chasers...... but we're most likely gonna burn those that 3 points lead against catania next week.
right behind palermo, the situation is even more messed up than last week, with napoli, juve and samp at 48 points.
fiorentina is getting each week closer to the group, while genoa has the same points of fiorentina, but, their last results suggests they're loosing the grip....of course the genova derby might change everything...... but then again, every week changes everything lately.... i mean look at napoli, they were the last team of the chasers group till 2 weeks ago, and now they are the most serious contenders for palermo.

hang in there rosanero!!!

Roma are too hard to predict. These things are rather cyclical, when one team is winning, the other is going through a rough patch. Now Roma have had a good streak over the last 2 months, and they're getting back Totti from injury, so they could possibly win every game. But then again they are notoriously injury prone, and some of their players are known for their lapses in concentration in vital moments i.e. run up to the scudetto. And judging on how well they're performing in the last 4-5 weeks, I have a feeling some players have peaked too early and will see a dip in form on the next few weeks. So really, results can go either way.

yep. i'm quite sure roma is gonna lose the lazio derby, but apart from that, they might well win every match.
then again, as mario sconcerti pointed out last week, after such a long and tough chase, roma might even face a form collapse (or a mental\concentration collapse) at the very end of the season.
having said that, roma has 2 big factors in its favour. they don't have to deal with champions league and they have an easier schedule than inter.
this finale is gonna be great.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Ben, I know you spent a lot of time writing about Perotta etc. But I actually agree with rfu's opinion on those players. I consider them to be like Ambrosini in a way. In terms of fully technical qualities, Perotta, Ambrosini and Brighi, to a much lesser extent Zanetti, are players that have other qualities that outshine their technical abilities. I've always thought that Perotta's ball control, shooting and passing were quite poor, but his positioning and movement incredible - and this is made more visible by his work rate. Same for someone like Ambrosini - technically one of the worst players in Milan, but his mental and physical abilities are very impressive.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

I consider them to be like Ambrosini in a way. In terms of fully technical qualities, Perotta, Ambrosini and Brighi, to a much lesser extent Zanetti, are players that have other qualities that outshine their technical abilities. I've always thought that Perotta's ball control, shooting and passing were quite poor, but his positioning and movement incredible - and this is made more visible by his work rate. Same for someone like Ambrosini - technically one of the worst players in Milan, but his mental and physical abilities are very impressive.

well, if we consider only ball control, dribbling and shooting as "technical abilities", then yes, perrotta is nothing special.
the thing is theese aren't the only technical abilities.
nocerino, aswell as ambrosini are nice players, who can give an enourmous contribution to their teams..... but no matter how hard they might try, they could never do what perrotta and brighi do. because they don't have the timing and the "offensive" sense of position perrotta and brighi have. and it's not a matter of hard work or commitment. they could spend years trying to provide their teams what perrotta and brighi do, and they would still fail. because that sense of pposition, that ability to foresee the development of the play, follow it and be always at the right place in the right time isn't something u can get by practicing...... it's a talent, a skill. u either have it or not. if u have it, u can also improve it by practice. but if u don't have it, u just can't "learn it". u can't become a perrotta or a brighi, unless u have that skill.

so long story short, perrotta and brighi are talented, as they have some natural skills that can't be earned through hard work and practice.

as for cristiano zanetti, well, being a great metodista, he's got definitely a talent in his passing game. melo will never be able to do what zanetti does, coz he just doesn't have that talent. and i guess juventus fans realised that very well this season.

when we talk about average players with no specific skills or talents, who still made it to the big stage thanks to their hard work and commitment, we're talking about gattuso, blasi, ambrosini...... but with zanetti, perrotta and brighi, we're talking about a different type of player.... at least imo

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

rfu, i'm not quite sure what u mean when u say the likes of perrotta, brighi and zanetti have no specific talent.

I think I worded it wrong. What I meant was back when C. Zanetti started out, he was simply assigned as a destroyer in midfield. With the U21s he was fielded alongside Baronio and Pirlo playing slightly ahead as the trequartista, and Zanetti wasn't required to do much but tackle, cover, and make a simple passes to team mates. Baronio and Pirlo were considered the real talent, with their abilities to switch or spread the play, employ crafty dribbles, and provide the pin point, eye of the needle, defence splitting passes to forwards. But look at Zanetti now. I think Capello credits himself for this caterpillar-to-butterfly transformation because it took place under his watch. Anyway that was what I meant.

that's because brighi now plays as a mezz'ala (a la perrotta). brighi doesn't play as a mediano anymore

What's a mediano? What I know for sure is Brighi has been used to fill in at every position in the midfield.

About De Rossi, he is, as you say, beyond awesome, but for me he could be even better. Not being unrealistic or unfair to De Rossi, but at this point in his career I feel he should assert himself more on the field, particularly outside of Italy. I've been watching a lot of Inter in 1989-1992 period (trying to get inspired) and one thing I noted watching Matthaus in midfield is that, well he wasn't all that good... let me finish... he was our playmaker but his passing wasn't as incisive or as well weighted as the forwards needed, and he didn't offer us much creatively. BUT he had this steely-eyed resilience and determined look on his face the whole time, and he would roam about the field, either with the ball at this feet, or demanding the ball from his team mates. He would essentially drive the team forward, taking charge, asserting himself, assuming responsibility for every move or phase of play. And this was his first season in Italy, playing for a big side (and when you consider how good our city rivals were at the time... he had a lot expectations to live up to). Matthaus can barely speak English, I doubt he knew much Italian.

Now, not many players can be this mentally tough, but playing for Roma, a small club (relatively speaking), I sort of expected De Rossi to deliver in a similar fashion, but to me, Pizarro is the more assertive of the two, always demanding the ball, with De Rossi being the more passionate.

anyhow, in the last 3 seasons, something very weird happened. small teams keep playing their football at their best till the very end of the season, regardless their position in the table. and since our small teams actually play some damn good football (cagliari, parma, bari are much more entertaining to watch than the likes of inter, milan and juve, for instance), it gets damn hard to beat them, when they show u they aren't gonna hand u the 3 points withouth a fight.

Reminds me of the Genoa-Torino game last year

for instance, u predicted a palermo win next week. well, no need to say i hope u're right, but it's gonna be damn hard to get even just 1 point from the catania match. u obviously know about the huge rivalry between palermo and catania.... well we haven't won in catania in years, and this time will be even more difficult....

Didn't know you hadn't won there since 2 years, but I was counting on a 'rush of blood to the head' moment in this weekends game, as you said, Catania will be looking to dash your dreams of a UCL place, so they will play a tad more open, looking for a goal. Now, Palermo are tougher defensively and will be able to sustain waves after waves of attacks and then hit on the break which you are rather effective at. Unless Catania score first, I don't see them winning this one.

Oh, I think you read it wrong Catania vs Palermo 0-1 isn't the scoreline, it's the points to expect, either 0pt (for a loss) or 1pt for a draw. I don't expect you guys to beat Catania away. Sorry

yep. i'm quite sure roma is gonna lose the lazio derby

I'm willing to money on the reverse happening. Barring any injuries, this current Roma for me is just too good to lose against this Lazio. That said, Lazio have a better defensive record than Roma Only reason they're near the relegation zone is because of Zarate... I mean because they don't score enough goals

because that sense of pposition, that ability to foresee the development of the play, follow it and be always at the right place in the right time isn't something u can get by practicing...... it's a talent, a skill. u either have it or not. if u have it, u can also improve it by practice. but if u don't have it, u just can't "learn it". u can't become a perrotta or a brighi, unless u have that skill...

I think what you're saying is right, at least I can't disagree with it. I mean, could be Perotta, Brighi and CZanetti peaked later in their careers and were not noticed until then. But I do think they had to spend more hours on the training ground to hone their respective skill, rather than having had it all along. That what I meant, they had to work harder to distinguish themselves.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

i see pal. this last post of yours made everything more clear and i can definitely say i agree with everything u wrote.

as for for your de rossi point, now i see what u meant... the thing is, being a metodista, and having a pure regista in the team, it would be unappropriate for de rossi to assert himself more than he already does. but that depends uniquely by the fact that there's already a regista in the team (who must remain the "core" of the midfield). infact, u can realise this by noticing how de rossi (and perrotta) step up their game everytime pizarro isn't playing.
when pizarro is in the formation, he's the one supposed to build the play, so de rossi doesn't have to interfere with that.

Oh, I think you read it wrong Catania vs Palermo 0-1 isn't the scoreline, it's the points to expect, either 0pt (for a loss) or 1pt for a draw. I don't expect you guys to beat Catania away. Sorry

oh, i see. well that's much more likely. i'd be pretty happy with a draw. with that huge battle for the 4th spot, the most important thing is to get at least 1 point every week.... lose one game and u're screwed.

I'm willing to money on the reverse happening. Barring any injuries, this current Roma for me is just too good to lose against this Lazio. That said, Lazio have a better defensive record than Roma Only reason they're near the relegation zone is because of Zarate... I mean because they don't score enough goals

i'd tend to agree with u, but there's a weird tradition about the roma derby.... usually the winner is the team wich is doing bad (that would be lazio). that's why i said i'm quite sure the biancocelesti will win.

What's a mediano?

some time ago i provided a short italian\english dictionary, to explain some roles that don't really have a proper english translation. the following is a copy\paste from that post.

Spoiler

and now the central midfielders... the proper translation of central midfielder would be "centrocampista centrale" . but we don't really refer to central midfielders with that expression, wich is way too vague. so we tend to use a specific word for each type of central midfielder. here they are.
mediano - defensive midfielder. there are 3 types of mediani.
mediano di spinta, who also like to venture foward, from time to time (like diarra or sissoko, for instance)
mediano di rottura, who just take care of the defensive phase of the game and have a specific tackling skill (like gattuso)
and finally mediano di copertura (copertura means coverage), who have a particularly good sense of position (positioning).

regista - deep-lying playmakers... now this english expression is really awful... i'd rather translate it with "orchestra directors" (pirlo, xavi, xabi alonso, just to mention the 3 most famous).

metodista - ther's not a specific translation of this role... probably as there aren't many metodistas outside italy. a metodista is mainly a defensive midfielder (wich is why people often refer to them using the expression "mediano metodista", as if metodista was an adjective to clarify the specific kind of defensive midfielder), with a footballing brain.
the metodistas don't have the flair, the instinct, the vision of a regista, but yet they have an innate "sense of geometry" wich allows them to build the plays, to"create football" and, most important, to dictate the tempo of the plays.
sure u won't see a metodista performing a +30 meters long pass, neither a cracking through ball or a great assist.... but they don't even just sit back and protect the midfield, as a pure mediano.
example: gattuso; arguably the greatest mediano di rottura in his generation... he's pretty much like a "moving wall"... the opponent's attacks tend to bounce off him.
now let's consider cambiasso. fantastic mediano.... but actually he's something more than that; he's a mediano metodista. esteban plays with his "head up".... he doesn't look at the ball, he looks at his teammates (wich is something quite unusual for a pure mediano). he has not the creativity required to be defined as a regista, but still, his above average passing game, combined with his "sense of geometry" allows him to give some structure to the team. his plays, his passes aren't breathetaking, but tidy, neat.
a good metodista is a huge asset to any team, and they usually become the key players of their own team. in italy we have many good and great metodistas (cambiasso, thiago motta, de rossi, cristiano zanetti, palombo, donadel, barone, just to mention a few) but there are also a few great examples outside italy, like senna, toulalan, frings...

i guess that'll do it
--------------------------------------------------------------
fellas, a few days ago i got my hands on "storia delle idee del calcio", a book written by mario sconcerti.
this is the first sconcerti book i read... and i'm definitely gonna get them all. it's a history of the evolution of football.... from champman's wm formation to viani's viadema and so on till today.
i'm telling u, this is a "must-buy". i can guarrantee that pretty much everything in this book is absolutely correct and spot on.... actually i even got to learn a few things i didn't know.... and besides, sconcerti's views and analysis are always very intriguing and insightful.
so, if u're italian, just buy it.
if u're not italian, then see if u can find a translated version..... and if u can't, then learn italian and buy it! it's that good
http://blog.bcdeditore.it/2009/11/mario-sconcerti-presenta-storia-delle-idee-del-calcio/

 

[Dominic]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

When did you first watch Zanetti? when he was starting out he had no skill, no first touch, could only tackle but was too slow. But he worked hard on the little he had, and developed more and more along the way. That's why he's been my favorite midfielder for a good long while. You don't rate Brighi and Palombo? Well, maybe because they don't look good in youtube videos or highlight reels. You're missing out though. This reminds of the comparisons between Mascherano and Cambiasso, when the EPL pundits Masherano was a better midfielder than Cambiasso, I guess because he makes more slide tackles and is quicker. But can he pass the ball? Can he shoot?
.

Wrong on all the accounts. Yes Zanetti developed over time, but he was always more than a slow hardworker.

I do rate Brighi and Palombo, especially the latter. But not nearly as much as I rate De Rossi.

I'll let the personal insult slide..

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

what the hell is going on in firenze...... first the rumours about prandelli leaving... and now della valle stepping back too!

i really hope at least della valle stays.... if he would sell fiorentina, this might well turn out to be the end of fiorentina's amazing ride.

crap i'd be so disappointed... and i'm not even a fiorentina fan!!

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Ben, that book you mention, reminds me of "Inverting the pyramid" by Jonathan Wilson. It's a history of tactics in football and it's a must read for every Italian football fan (because they are the fans that are most interested in the tactical aspect of the game).

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

yeah gerd, i remember u talking about that book... i also think i ordered it on internet, but still didn't read it.... (that's what happens when u buy more books than u could possibly read in a lifetime ).

speaking of the definition of mediano, i just remembered the most poetic definition of a mediano was given by the italian (inter fan) singer luciano ligabue a few years ago...... grande Liga!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrXlRqjoFac&feature=related
unfortunately i couldn't find a translation of the lirycs, so i guess just the italian speakers in here will enjoy this

lol, only an italian could write a song about a football role

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Well looking at the performance of Bayern tonight, you have to say a lot of credit is due to Fiorentina for taking them so close in the last round. Fiorentina have played some big sides so far in Europe (Liverpool, Lyonnais and Bayern) and they have always done a decent game and never looked below average.

I think Roma will win the league, I just have a feeling with the run-in of games they have I would expect them to just pull back those points behind Inter, the weekend of 17th / 18th will be very big with Inter-Juventus and Lazio-Roma (I think it's those matches that weekend).

 

[*aLe]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Well, more or less it should be like this:

A defensive midfielder's life, winning balls back
born without good feet, let's work on the lungs
A defensive midfielder's life, with well defined tasks
covering certain zones, giving all
there, always there, in the middle
as long as you've got something, stay there..

A defensive midfielder's life, of someone who quite never scores
'cause you have to give the ball to the ones that finalize the play
A defensive midfielder's life, 'cause nature didn't give you
the acceleration either of a forward or of a trequartista,
what a shame..
there, always there, in the middle
as long as you've got something, stay there,
stay there, always there, in the middle,
as long as you've got something, stay there..

A defensive midfielder's life, of someone getting old early,
because when you've given too much you have to go away, let others in
A defensive midfielder's life, working like Oriali,
years of hard work and harsh tackles,
eventually you win the World Cup..
there, always there, in the middle
as long as you've got something, stay there,
stay there, always there, in the middle,
as long as you've got something, stay there..

 

[bebo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

What`s with Mourinho saying he`s tired of Italian Football ,but not Inter. Sounds like Wenger when he says I just give the FA my credit card so they can debit everytime they feel the need to fine me is that what Mourinho is going through atm then? getting fine a lot

 

[*aLe]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

is that what Mourinho is going through atm then? getting fine a lot

This is what happens when you keep on annoying people on purpose just because "Oooooh my team is SOOOO damaged by referees!!"

Of course you go watching the Roma-In*&r highlights again and voilà, you find out that magically according to Mou it's Roma that had a goal with a 3-MEN-OFFSIDE allowed, certainly not In*&r (at 0:46)..
YouTube - Roma-Inter 2-1 goal Milito commento Recalcati 27-3-2010

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Mourinho talks a lot of $hit!

And Della Valle has walked out as Fiorentina president!
Not sure what it's all about but I don't like this news and want our Italian friends to tell us more about it as the next few days perhaps make the situation more clearer.

Prandelli's staying apparently though.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

What`s with Mourinho saying he`s tired of Italian Football ,but not Inter. Sounds like Wenger when he says I just give the FA my credit card so they can debit everytime they feel the need to fine me is that what Mourinho is going through atm then? getting fine a lot

mourinho doesn't like it here, coz people here got bored of him. and that's a tragedy for jose, as the most important thing to him is the people's admiration. he lives for that. that's more important to him than coaching, than his own players's respect, than winning, then silverware.... his image is what he cares the most about and silverware and trophies matter to him just because he needs them to support his image (u can't just go out and say "love me people, i'm the best one" if u don't actually win something and get some trophies to back up your propaganda).

he loves england because england loved (and still loves) him. england worships him as a great manager and a coolest person, and that's all he needs to feel confortable and to come to terms with is latent insecurity.

when he first came in italy, people already knew he wasn't really nothing special as a coach. but they thought he was a great character. we were all captivated by his flamboyant attitude.... and that was enough for us to "fall in love" with him (we already have plenty of great coaches here, so being a great coach wouldn't have made him "special" over here).
and it was also enough for him to feel good. afterall he just needs admiration.... wheter he gets it for his professional skills or for his "out of the line" character.... that doesn't really matter to him.

but since all the interest on him was caused by the fact he was "something new", this passion for mourinho wasn't mean to last for long. after a while people realised that everything about jose is fake, artificial... he isn't really what u see..... what u see is the image he created for himself. what we see is what mourinho would like to be, not what he actually is..... and everyday he puts on quite a show, hoping no one will ever see how the real man behind that image really looks like.
i'm afraid this insecurity, this lack of confidence is not attractive at all.... and since the respect italians felt for mourinho was based only on "attraction" (as we always knew he wasn't really nothing special as a coach).... this respect, this admiration vanished and turned into indifference.

sadly indifference is precisely what mourinho can't stand. so he tried harder and harder to get people's attention back. but that didn't help him as the harder he tried, the stupider he looked.
so what he feels now is anger. he's like a man dumped by his woman... his pride is wounded, he feels frustrated and angry.
this anger brought him to look even more stupid and to make some very silly, unproven and harsh accusations. the federcalcio asked him to prove his accusations, to explain what brought him to imply "someone" was trying to damage inter..... and he said that was not what he meant... that everyone misunderstood him... that he didn't really wanted to imply anything. so the federcalcio replied "oh really! so we all misunderstood u?! ok then, let's pretend we believe it, for this time..... but next time, be sure u have evidences to back up your accusations or u will deal with the consequence of your conduct".
but mourinho did it again and this time the federcalcio didn't pretend nothing happened and punished him.

and after that punishment, it was moratti himself who ordered him to stay quite by putting him in press-silence.... because even moratti realised that the more jose talks, the more he makes a fool of himself.

at this point the relationship between italy and mourinho is definitely compromised. people here doesn't find him cool anymore. we're absolutely indifferent to him and that kills him inside.
if not this summer, he will be gone by next year, that for sure.
and u know what, i think that's a shame, as even though he got boring and he's not really such a good coach, he's actually doing a great job at inter (i mean, if we don't consider the whole balotelli situation). this inter is a great team and mourinho deserves all the credit for it as his imprint is very evindent.... oh well, at least we won't have to hear him anymore.

the funny thing is, after his italian experience, he will most likely leave for spain (as his biggest dream is to be able to say "i'm the greatest coach in history coz i won in all the most improtant leagues in the world")..... but spanish people will get bored of him even sooner than italians did. i know spain pretty well and i can guarrantee mourinho won't last more than 2 seasons (tops) there.... so he better win la liga in his first season.

And Della Valle has walked out as Fiorentina president!
Not sure what it's all about but I don't like this news and want our Italian friends to tell us more about it as the next few days perhaps make the situation more clearer.

i'm out of time now, but i took a week off work (as u can tell from my daily visits to the forum recently), so later on or tomorrow i'll give u all the info u need, bro.

for now i can tell u the situation is a lot better than it seemed to be yesterday. diego della valle resigned from president, but he's made it very clear he's got no intention to sell the club (wich is the most important thing). his younger brother, should take his place in the board, and that's actually a good news as andrea (the brother) is even smarter and more expert in football than diego (besides he's already been fiorentina's president till last year).
so bottom line, the della valle family is not leaving, corvino is not leaving, and apparently also prandelli is gonna stay.
that's quite a relief honestly

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Well Ben, i must admit that i kind of like Mourinho. He's about my age and he's getting older very gracefully. On top of that he has some style: look at his clothes..i like them very much (you should see me). He's quite a handsome guy too...

But of course my attraction is not mere physical. He has some bravoura about him (or around him) that i like very much. Like when he said before the second match against Chelsea: "Mourinho never looses at Stamford Bridge"...i think that is fantastic.

I'm not so sure that it's all about him. With Chelsea and Inter he is coach in a very high profile team with lots of big players, lots of money was spended and thus an enormous amount of pression on the players...IMHO by acting like he does, he wants to take the pressure of the players.

I don't know if he's tactically astute...i won't judge that, because i'm far from tactically astute and i know tactics are important for you Ben..i will not start another discussion about that after the last one (that's a joke).

But all in all Mourinho seems a very intelligent person to me (but intelligent persons also can behave like an ass hole sometimes).

I must admit that there are two coaches/managers that i really like: Wenger (he's the best) but also Mourinho.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

If Mourinho has a quality, its his confidence. Watching Inter players run around like no tomorrow is what keeps them ticking. Its down to his ability to get the players motivated and fighting for the team... something Milan has lacked for the last 3 years.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

i disagree on both accounts. being able to boost your team's confidence and being a confident person yourself are 2 different things.
there's a difference between looking confident and being confident, exactly as there's a difference between looking smart and being an intelligent person for real.

mourinho tries very hard to look confident, that's the image he wanna give of himself..... but that's not what he really is. a confident person would never depend on other's people opinion and respect as much as jose does. when u have that self esteem, that awareness, that balance that make u a confident person, u don't really care about other's people opinion. that's the difference between vanity and narcisism.
a narcisist is someone who really considers himself "the best thing", someone who really believes in himself.
a vain person instead is someone who tries to hide his latent insecurity behind an artifical (confident) mask.
jose isn't a narcisist.... mancini is a narcisist, for example. jose instead is just vain.

if he were really as confident as he tries to look, then he wouldn't get on the defensive so easily. a real confident person never gets on the defensive, precisely because he is confident, because he has that self esteem.
an unconfident, unsecure person instead is touchy. and that's mourinho. it takes nothing to put him on the defensive. u just have to question him and he gets berserk. no confident people would react like that.

he certainly has the ability to put his players in the right mental approach to the match. that's his very best ability infact. but that is something very different from being confident yourself.

as for his intelligence, well i got to be honest, i can't really call intelligent a person who says he's got nothing to learn from anybody......saying that your personal and working experiences didn't change u, didn't taught u anything (wich is exactly what mourinho likes to say) is the most evident and undenyable symptom of stupidity.... and there's really no way around this.

and as for the "i try to take pressure away from my players" point.... i already said that's just ridiculous. every drama, every confrontation with the media, every argument with his colleagues, everything he does to put himself under the spotlight does nothing but INCREASING the pressure on his players.
infact no other coach in europe puts more pressure on his players than josè.
when i think about coaches who are able to take the pressure away from their squads, my mind goes to ancelotti, to hiddink, to ferguson. certainly not mourinho. in this department jose is even worse than the likes of mancini, lippi, magath, van gaal.
he certainly likes to say that he does what he does just to take some pressure off the players, but that's just because he could never admit he's an "attention whore".

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Ben, you really don't like him, don't you...
You say a couple of thing which are theoretically true. I totally agree that really intelligent people try to learn as much as possible. But (and this is maybe a weak arguement), it's not because Mourinho SAYS that he can't learn anything, that he really believes this. I think much of what he does is an act...he probably has the highest show bizz -factor of all the coaches i know...

But of course this is all banter...most people you like from the media, are totally different. The fact that i like Mourinho and that i think he's intelligent does not make him an intelligent and likeable person.

Mourinho is far from my hero, but i was thinking about what people say: don't try to meet your heroes, because there is a possibility that this will turn out to be a major disappointment.

I'm a huge Miles Davis fan and i also like Picasso's art very much...i've read biographies about both of them and i'm pretty sure both were far from nice and "good" people (look for instance at the way they treated women). It's funny that Miles Davis who can move me (almost) toi tears with his music turns out to be a rather insensitive man, same goes for Picasso...

Sorry for the off-topic.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

I totally agree that really intelligent people try to learn as much as possible. But (and this is maybe a weak arguement), it's not because Mourinho SAYS that he can't learn anything, that he really believes this.

absolutely mate. but u see, what makes him stupid is not the fact that he doesn't learn from experience.... that would make him stubborn and egocentric, not necessarily stupid. it's saying that what really tells me he's not clever at all. let me make an example. mancini is a narcisist, hence it's absolutely impossible form him to learn from experience, as that would imply that he might make a mistake, and that's a possibility that a narcisist won't ever even consider. but, being a smart son of a b..., mancini won't ever admit that. if a journalist would ask him, he would unashamedly lie and say "yeah, sure each professional experience in my life taught me something and made me a better person".
jose isn't even clever enough to realise that lying is the smart play here. and that's what makes him a idiot.

however Gerd, don't misunderstand me. i have absolutely no prejudices against mourinho. i don't say i don't find him intelligent coz i don't like him. i don't say i don't rate him as a top coach coz i don't like him.
i consider him a not very clever person (he's definitely sly though) because that's what he shows. i don't consider him a top class coach coz his coaching tells me he's not.

and i'm absolutely sure my personal opinion of the man doesn't effect my judgement..... because i actually like mourinho.... a lot!
afterall our likes have nothing to do with the qualities of the flaws of somebody, as men are irrationals by nature. we don't necessarily like people for their qualities... sometimes we just like them (regardless their personal qualities or character). jose bores me most of the times, i can't stand his attitude and i believe he must be a pretty boring person, but i like him, and that's it.
i think this is something pretty common, afterall. we all like some people we really wouldn't wanna like and vice versa. for example i absolutely don't like capello, lippi and mancini. i truly can't stand them. but that doesn't effect my judgement over them. i can easily say 2 of em (capello and lippi) are great coaches, even though i don't really like em.
i have no problems admitting that capello, mancini and lippi are all very charismatic persons, or that capello must be extremely smart.... but that doesn't make me like them.
the same way i like mourinho (for some reasons i can't really explain) but that doesn't make his flaws and weaknesses disappear . and i don't think there's a contraddiction in this.
exactly as i think there's no contraddiction in saying that he's not a top class coach and admitting (at the same time) that nobody, no top class coach could do a better job at inter right now. take any top class coach around the globe..... ferguson, lippi, capello, hiddink, spalletti, prandelli... they all belong to a different league compared to josè.
but i truly believe none of them could have done a better job for inter.

anyhow, rfu, leo and all our others inter fan, good luck for tonite's match!

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Balotelli

Raoila is one sneaky fuck, he knew the camera would be on Mario, but he wasn't fast enough ... Probably even had to drag Mario along to watch the game.

Good result. Actually we're better of 1-0 than 2-0 or 3-0 because this way we remain focused throughout. Stanko had his best game of the season, should be MoM.

 

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Nice avatar, rfU.

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

for now i can tell u the situation is a lot better than it seemed to be yesterday. diego della valle resigned from president, but he's made it very clear he's got no intention to sell the club (wich is the most important thing). his younger brother, should take his place in the board, and that's actually a good news as andrea (the brother) is even smarter and more expert in football than diego (besides he's already been fiorentina's president till last year).
so bottom line, the della valle family is not leaving, corvino is not leaving, and apparently also prandelli is gonna stay.
that's quite a relief honestly

That's great news indeed!

Inter have one foot in the semi-finals now.

Militoooooooooo

It's a shame we probably won't see him in World cup. But then again Argentina's just got ridiculous depth. But to see a player of HIS quality, his consistency and his proven record not go there, makes you think what do you have to do!! I really hope he has a spot in national team in WC. He deserves it! So does Higuain and Messi though and then Tevez and Aguero to lesser extents.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Militoooooooooo

It's a shame we probably won't see him in World cup. But then again Argentina's just got ridiculous depth. But to see a player of HIS quality, his consistency and his proven record not go there, makes you think what do you have to do!! I really hope he has a spot in national team in WC. He deserves it! So does Higuain and Messi though and then Tevez and Aguero to lesser extents.

yeah, it's just crazy when u think maradona has 2 cf like milito and higuain to choose between. i could never pick one of them over the other... they're both just too good to be benched.

rfu, yeah, u're right on raiola, he's one bastard son of a b.... but then again u have to be like that in that line of work.

and i also agree about stankovic. stunning performance. although cambiasso was great too (but that's no surprise) and probably deserves the man of the match label as much as deki.

edit:
wait a minute Sina. u mean milito might even not get called up by maradona??!!! that'd be crazy!! i thought it was just a matter of deciding who was supposed to be the starter between him and higuain.... i didn't know his presence at the world cup was at risk.

 

[Ernestito]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

milito, tevez, messi, aguero, higuain, lisandro...1 player must be left out. honestly, aguero is needless but he is maradonas son-in-law, so I guess either lisandro or milito has to book his holidays very soon.

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Actually Maradona usually takes 6 strikers. It only depends if he chooses Palermo and Di Maria over one of the two. Di Maria is for sure though.

 

[Ernestito]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

well I think di maria can be considered as a midfielder although he is playing as a left winger often.

 

[YoungGun_UK]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Milito should start over Higuan simply down to experience.

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

edit:
wait a minute Sina. u mean milito might even not get called up by maradona??!!! that'd be crazy!! i thought it was just a matter of deciding who was supposed to be the starter between him and higuain.... i didn't know his presence at the world cup was at risk.

Well I hope I'm wrong! I hope I'm very wrong because this guy NEEDS to be at World Cup!

To be honest, although an Aguero fan, I would leave him out. Because as incredible as he is, Argentina have two somewhat similar players in Messi and Tevez who are arguably even better. But they don't have a real aerial threat forward unless Crespo was to go lol or old Palermo gets picked which I hope not!

Lisandro Lopez is a great forward too but doesn't deserve it as much as Milito and is again a 'shorter' forward although actually decent in the air. Plus he's younger, but if Milito was to miss this, it'd be over for him.

But Kun despite some sub-par performances will be in World cup, like someone said, Maradonna is his father-in-law. Messi and Tevez look set. Palermo is still useful but honestly no way at the EXPENSE of someone like Milito.

For me it's an easy decision, like you said, Milito GOES to World Cup and there, the only question is, who starts, him or Higuain who also truly deserves his spot. But it's Maradonna we're talking about and I for one, don't have much faith in him. In fact the one reason, I'm not so keen on Argentina in this World Cup despite having arguably the best set of players available to any national team, IS him. But let's see what he does...

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2009/10 Season

Yup Palermo can be very useful in the heading department as all the others are average by skill or short to cause a threat. Is Pastore in the guarenteed squad though? He was called a couple of times and really impressed Maradona.

As for Milito and Higuain, both have been awesome. I watched a lot of Higuain this season and he is just awesome. He is very fast and can score from everywhere. Makes scoring goals look very easy. Funny thing, he didn't even start a match for Real until Benzema and Raul got injured or showed bad form. Let's see one of them take his place now. Milito positions him self better though.

Last thing, looks like Pato has zero chance of going to the WC. That is sad as all my mates were expecting him to shine in this WC from a year.