Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Council-owned stadia. Is Juve the only club in Serie A that own their own stadium? Stadia in Italy is light years behind most of the rest of Europe, unfortunately.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Then what exactly is the "agenda" behind Juventus fans doing that to Balotelli ? Why do they go for Balotelli and not for example Seedorf when they play Milan or Santacroce when they played Napoli? Is the "agenda" against Juventus's owners? the Italian League ? Or the goverment ??

And is this the same "agenda" when the national team play ?

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I also feel that our stadia are very poorly managed, apart from possibly San Siro and a few other ones. I think it also has to do with the fact that they're owned by city councils rather than the clubs, so the state of them is very poor.

Council-owned stadia. Is Juve the only club in Serie A that own their own stadium? Stadia in Italy is light years behind most of the rest of Europe, unfortunately.

indeed. this situation is becoming really unbearable. in other countries stadia are an asset which makes money for the clubs.... and since the clubs are also in charge of security, the situation is much better.
in italy instead the fact that our clubs don't own the stadia, not only makes it much more difficult to handle the security aspect, but it also adds an additional cost to the club finances.
stadia aren't an asset for italian clubs, they're an expense.
can u believe palermo spends 20 millions euros every season to have the team playing at the renzo barbera stadium!! that's more than what we spent to sign pastore, ilicic, balzaretti, cassani and liverani put together!! and we have to pay that money each and every season.

that's why almost every club in italy is desperately trying to build a stadium of their own. some clubs already almost got it (juve), some others are about to begin the construction (palermo), but many others are fighting against the italian bureaucracy (like fiorentina). red tape is a killing machine in italy.... even opening a small shop is unbelievably hard, nevermind building a stadium.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Then what exactly is the "agenda" behind Juventus fans doing that to Balotelli ? Why do they go for Balotelli and not for example Seedorf when they play Milan or Santacroce when they played Napoli? Is the "agenda" against Juventus's owners? the Italian League ? Or the goverment ??

And is this the same "agenda" when the national team play ?

If it was Mihajlovic or Ibrahimovic, you get the same sort of abuse - they will get called 'zingari'. Balotelli isn't exactly an angel when it comes to ego and behaviour - he's easy to hate (a lot of Interisti dislike him too). Same as a player like Materazzi. These are players that love to stir shit up because they act hard - to get them down, ultra will try to abuse them emotionally.

Seedorf and Liverani, for example, have always been classy players that respect fans, so there's no reason to target them (Not that anyone needs a reason to target Balotelli racially).

In terms of infrastructure, I think we're headed towards the right direction. Several people are pushing for a Premiership and Liga style reserve league to encourage playing time between reserves and youth players. There's also a new focus on encouraging teams to field young players, and it seems to really be happening. Lecce, Palermo and Sampdoria, for example, are playing many younger players than average.

But once we can get over the stadia issue, a lot of teams will benefit more from tickets and will have more direct control over security and allocations. This process will take ages though, which is worrying. Losing the Euro bid to France is proof of it.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Then what exactly is the "agenda" behind Juventus fans doing that to Balotelli ? Why do they go for Balotelli and not for example Seedorf when they play Milan or Santacroce when they played Napoli? Is the "agenda" against Juventus's owners? the Italian League ? Or the goverment ??

And is this the same "agenda" when the national team play ?

who knows. the real interests behind theese acts are usually something that remains undercover..... it's just a rare exception when we actually find out "what that was really about".

it happened with the napoli-liverpool incident because some magistrates opened an inquiry on those incidents... and it happened with the lazio ultras extortion, because a journalist eventually got a tip from the inside.
....but most of the times the real agendas remain unknown.

.... but like u remarked, the fact itself that those very same fans who booed balotelli, don't boo seedorf (for instance) and even praise and show love and respect for other black players (like, say davids or sissoko or thuram), then u know it can't be about racism. it's just too obvious.

u know mate, i actually wish it was about racism. because, as despicable as it may be, racism is (relatively) easy to fight. racism roots are ignorance and fear (and ovbiously the second is only a consequence of the first), u just have to eradicate that ignorance and the prejudices that come with it, and you're already halfway through solving the problem. racism was a very serious problem to solve till 100 years ago, when it was actually very complicated to educate people. today the situation is different.

but this is much more serious. the club-owned stadia are gonna be a huge step forward, but they won't eradicate the problem. that's just gonna be a step in the right direction.

u see, when u give power to somebody (an organization or a single individual) it becomes very hard to deprive him of that power. once a power is created it's extemely difficult to suppress it, once a right is conceded, it's extremely difficult to take it back.
let me make an example: imagine i was palermo's owner. if i had the ultras of my club paying their tickets each and every week, it's gonna be easy for me to keep it that way.....
but if i start allowing those ultras to get into the stadium without a ticket and to watch the game for free....... then it's gonna be extremely difficult to have them paying their tickets again.
that's our situation now. over the last decades, we sent a message to italian people. the stadium is a no-man's land, where u can do whatever u want. the stadium is your home. so if u're a normal civilized person, who acts like a civilised person at your home, u will do the same at the stadium..... but if u're an animal, the u will feel entitled to act as your instincts suggest.

the same "animal" would act differently in an english stadium (for instance) as he would not consider the stadium "like his home", he wouldn't feel free to do whatever he wants.... he would actually feel like a guest, and act accordingly.

that's what we have to achieve. we need to have people realising they're guests, when they get into a stadium. once we will achieve such a result (if we will ever achieve such a result) then no one will be able to use football matches as a "scenario" as a stage, as a weapon to threaten, to extort, to get leverage.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

i just remembered another episode very similar to the ones i mentioned before, edmundo.

a few years back (was it 2 seasons ago, stef?) some milan ultras stopped supporting the club. they kept going at the stadium, but they used to remain silent for the entire match. and it wasn't just about those few ultras either. they threatened other "normal fans", so even common "civilized" fans (like u and me) couldn't sing anymore or support their club.....i gotta say, if a bunch of a scary thugs would would warn me with a "stop singing now!", i wouldn't open my mouth at all.
almost an entire stadium silent for the entire match.... and for several weeks... it was unreal.

that until some of those peaceful normal fans got tired of this situation and eventually won their fears and told everything to the authorities. some magistrates opened an inquiry and it turned out that those few dozen ultras were trying to get some "privileges" from galliani. galliani refused so they had an entire curva (and not just the ultras anymore) remaining silent.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

If it was Mihajlovic or Ibrahimovic, you get the same sort of abuse - they will get called 'zingari'. Balotelli isn't exactly an angel when it comes to ego and behaviour - he's easy to hate. Same as a player like Materazzi. These are players that love to stir shit up because they act hard - to get them down, ultra will try to abuse them emotionally.

Then if that explains why Juventus fans attack Balotelli, why do fans of the national team do the same when Italy are playing ? From that logic it wouldn't make sense to abuse him if he is on their own team.

Also I agree he is not a good role model, but it's one thing to chant at a player for behaving like an asshole, but it's another thing (and much more shameful) to use phrases like "You can't be Italian and black", that is basically implying that anyone (not just Balotelli) of certain skin colours is never a "proper Italian". As I say it would be one thing if they chanted "Balotelli cretino / bischero" (obviously these arent that strong in terms of insults, but you get my point).

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Also I agree he is not a good role model, but it's one thing to chant at a player for behaving like an asshole, but it's another thing (and much more shameful) to use phrases like "You can't be Italian and black", that is basically implying that anyone (not just Balotelli) of certain skin colours is never a "proper Italian". As I say it would be one thing if they chanted "Balotelli cretino / bischero" (obviously these arent that strong in terms of insults, but you get my point).

yep, but if they would call him a bischero, no one would talk about it.... such a thing would hardly make a splash on italian newspapers, nevermind foreign media.

but look at what happened now. 31 people showed that banner against balotelli a few days ago and now all of a sudden, everyone talks about it.....
right now if u would ask to a german or a chinese or a australian or an american guy "what do u think about italian fans" he would most likely tell you "man, they're a bunch of fascists, untolerant racist".
that single banner showed by those 31 people clouded everything. that australian or american or english fan probably won't even have an idea of how much of an insult is the word fascist considered in italy, or about how powerless is the extreme right is in italy.... he just saw that banner and heard those booes and the mediatic impact, the visibility of that act overcomes everything else.

good luck trying to explain that fan that there are 12 times more comunists than fascists in italy! he'll never believe that now that he saw that banner.
u see what i meant when i wrote about "looking more representative than u really are"?

 

[odiboni]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

indeed. this situation is becoming really unbearable. in other countries stadia are an asset which makes money for the clubs.... and since the clubs are also in charge of security, the situation is much better.
in italy instead the fact that our clubs don't own the stadia, not only makes it much more difficult to handle the security aspect, but it also adds an additional cost to the club finances.
stadia aren't an asset for italian clubs, they're an expense.
can u believe palermo spends 20 millions euros every season to have the team playing at the renzo barbera stadium!! that's more than what we spent to sign pastore, ilicic, balzaretti, cassani and liverani put together!! and we have to pay that money each and every season.

that's why almost every club in italy is desperately trying to build a stadium of their own. some clubs already almost got it (juve), some others are about to begin the construction (palermo), but many others are fighting against the italian bureaucracy (like fiorentina). red tape is a killing machine in italy.... even opening a small shop is unbelievably hard, nevermind building a stadium.

Why don't the city council let club buy the stadia?

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I doubt if most clubs have enough money to buy their own stadium. On top of that since most stadiums are old and derelict, this would be a very bad investment for those clubs. It seems Italian city councils will not do what happened in Madrid (which is a good thing, because that was extremely unfair).

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Also, the council will have an extra asset on their balance sheets and will be able to gain something out of ticket sales. There's the whole Fiorentina issue right now- the club wants to build a sports park with a new stadium, but the council won't allow them.

In other news, Zamparini isn't leaving anymore

edit - FORZA ROMAAAAA!!!!!!

Bayern's curse against Italian teams continues! (except Fiorentina last year who were robbed(n) by the referee.

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Wow after reading all this crap about Italian stadiums, I don't think I'll be attending a Serie A match any time soon!

It doesn't sound like the stadium is a safe place to go! Let alone for a tourist like me!

My girlfriend's getting me tickets to an Atletico Madrid game in early January that we're gonna go together. I hope the situation there and in particular in Vicente Calderon where we'll be, is much better and safer.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

If you go to the general spectator sections, you'll 99% be fine and have a good time. They're just people and families there to watch a match of football. The chanting usually comes from the Ultra who are in the corners of stadia, or in bigger stadia, on the 2nd level. Also, I really doubt anything would happen to a spectator in their stands supporting their team!

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

My girlfriend's getting me tickets to an Atletico Madrid game in early January that we're gonna go together. I hope the situation there and in particular in Vicente Calderon where we'll be, is much better and safer.

I've been to a few of their games, you should be fine, the only thing is the stadium is very open and Madrid in January is not very warm.

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

From Genoa President Enrico Preziosi:

“What do I make of Veloso? There are some players who don’t realise what it means to play for Genoa and in January we can make them understand...”



I hear there's a lot of reefa going around italian stadiums during games? Can anyone confirm?

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Never seen (or should that be smelt) it at any Serie A match I've been too.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Smelt it every single time I've been to San Siro

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I've been to a few of their games, you should be fine, the only thing is the stadium is very open and Madrid in January is not very warm.

Yeah but I'm coming from Toronto, Canada. Our winter is much worst! lol I'm sure it'll be much warmer in Madrid.

But yeah that's what I've heard is downside of Vicente Calderon. Everybody says I should go to Bernabeu and I'd like to but Real doesn't have a home game in the time period I'm there.

I'm going to Barcelona for a few days too (Jan 5th - 7th) but they don't have a home game till about 9th or 10 th I think either and I've got my flight back on the 9th.

So Atletico it is.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

It's a good stadium and a cracking atmosphere, I was there back in 2003 and saw them lose 3-0 at home to Valencia - I'd seen Real v Marseilles in the CL a few days earlier and the atmosphere at the Calderon was a bit more lively than at the Bernabeu despite being run ragged by Mista and shipping 3 goals.

You're unlucky with those dates in Barca, you could see Espanyol in their new stadium if you were a day earlier or later - Pochettino has them playing nice football.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I also would prefer Atletico over Real PLF.

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

That's because you personally dislike Real Madrid. I don't. I like them as much as Barca and as much as Atletico and as much as Espanyol. All attractive to me and not in love with any.

It'd be a pleasure to see any of these teams in action. That's what I told my girl. I'm like now that I'm finally in Europe and coming to Spain, I'm gonna go to a stadium to see a La Liga match at least once.

The upside of Atletico is that tickets are cheaper apparently. So that's good, she can also accompany me.

p.s. Off-topic but here's another link of what I was saying before to rfU and others about Forlan loving Atletico and wanting to stay there if up to him.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11827_6526219,00.html

Him and Aguero may move at some point but both love the club and have no qualms about staying.

It's a good stadium and a cracking atmosphere, I was there back in 2003 and saw them lose 3-0 at home to Valencia - I'd seen Real v Marseilles in the CL a few days earlier and the atmosphere at the Calderon was a bit more lively than at the Bernabeu despite being run ragged by Mista and shipping 3 goals.

You're unlucky with those dates in Barca, you could see Espanyol in their new stadium if you were a day earlier or later - Pochettino has them playing nice football.

Yeah true. Espanyol would be nice too. Are they playing on 4th or 8th?

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Yes i dislike Real, they personify all what is wrong with football, but that is not the reason why i would go to Atletico.
Everybody i know says the atmosphere is much, much better at Vicente Calderon. On top of that Atletico are a team like Spurs: not always good but always attractive (albeit often because their opponents score often against them).

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Why don't the city council let club buy the stadia?

city councils would me more than happy to sell the stadia to italian clubs.... but the clubs don't want that.
italian stadia are obsolete, from an architectural point of view.... they were designed "only" to host people for football matches. modern days stadia are polifunctional facilities. they have restaurants and boutiques or small shops, they have museums dedicated to the history of the club, and football apparel shops. and all those "non-core" activities, contribute in a massive way to the financial maintenance of the stadium itself.
buying an already existing stadium would already be pretty expensive.... but then transforming it into a "modern stadium" (once u bought it) would be even more expensive...... long story short, the game isn't worth the candle.... it's much easier and cheaper to start building a new stadium from scratch.

In other news, Zamparini isn't leaving anymore

i told ya!!

Wow after reading all this crap about Italian stadiums, I don't think I'll be attending a Serie A match any time soon!

It doesn't sound like the stadium is a safe place to go! Let alone for a tourist like me!

oh no mate, italian stadia aren't a dangerous place at all. that wasn't my message. when i said "in an italian stadium u can do pretty much everything u want and get away with it", i was referring to a potential situation.
for instance, 2 weeks ago, during the palermo-catania derby, palermo and catania's ultras could have started a war just outside the stadium.... but they didn't. infact no one expected them to start a fight. it's a potential situation.

let's make something very important clear. ultras doesn't equal to violent fan. each italian club has at least 4 major ultras groups..... if even just half of them were "violent" it would be absolutely impossible to have a single football match in italy, of course.
truth is, the majority of ultras groups are non violent. they are nothing but hardcore supporters, who follow their team in every away match and sing for the whole match.
for instance in palermo we have 4 major ultras groups and none of them is a violent group.... u can see kids and girls in our curvas cheering along with the ultras.... we even have a "girls-only" ultras association. and the same goes for firenze and lecce and udine and parma.....

and even in those cities were there actually are some violent ultras groups, they aren't a threat to common fans or tourists.
u see violent ultras live by some sort of a military code: "never hurt civilians. go to war only with those other violent fans who wants to fight".
violent ultras only attack other violent ultras and the police (when they try to prevent the ultras from fighting each others).

there's only 1 single scenario wich might be dangerous for a common fan or a tourist. if u're a foreigner who is coming to roma or napoli to support your team in an international match between your team and roma or napoli...... well in this specific case..... in those specific cities, that can be dangerous, even for a common fan who just wants to enjoy a football match.

but that's the only dangerous scenario.... in any other city u can even go get a ticket for the home fans curva and nothing will happen to u.....
and even roma and napoli, it's not like they're dangerous cities (i can easily tell u los angeles, london and paris are MUCH more dangerous than napoli or roma). but when roma and napoli teams face european clubs in an international matchup, there's always a small group of violent ultras (or a group of thugs pretending to be ultras, as it happened in napoli a few weeks ago), who are gonna cause some troubles.....

so i would definitely suggest u to attend a serie a game if u ever find yourself in italy.... and not in the tribuna. the tribuna (the lateral stands) are full of common fans, people like u and me.... sitting in an italian tribuna is pretty much like being in any other stadium in the world... it's not such a breathetaking experience.
if u really wanna experience something unique, u gotta get a curva ticket. that's the only way to experience the folklore the passion, that charming, childish free spirit that makes italians different from any other people....

i've been hundreds of time in palermo's stadium curva and in napoli's stadium curva.. i've been in firenze's stadium curva, in san siro's, in roma's curva..... and yet i've never felt in danger.... and neither any of my friends. i mean i'm not stupid, i wouldn't be getting curva tickets if that was a dangerous place to be.
just look at this video. this was a palermo catania derby in 2004....that should be one of the most "dangerous" matches to attend to in italy.... it shows how people live the match from the curva....
http://video.libero.it/app/play/index.html?id=781381b3ca3b8f3ddaaa5aed2f442a76&ssonc=1505448447
does that look dangerous? do that people look scary? u can clearely see kids and girls in the curva aswell.... u can also recognize many tourists having fun with the local supporters (foreigners are extremely easy to spot in this video).

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Yeah true. Espanyol would be nice too. Are they playing on 4th or 8th?

Both days (both at home) 4th at home to Atletico in Copa del Rey, 8th home to Zaragossa. But remember in Spain they move some games around so it could be moved from the 8th to the 9th, they usually dont announce it until 2-3 weeks before the weekend.

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Yeah I find that annoying. They don't have a set fixture.

We were trying to get tickets a couple months back and they didn't have the exact dates announced, anyway thanks for the info. I might look at that....

@Ben, I had misunderstood. Thanks for all the info. That military code the violent ultras have is pretty good!

Though I was kinda kidding anyway, if I'm ever in Italy, of course I'm going to a Serie A game!

Plus nobody usually has the balls to fuck with me anyway!

 

[Neoexodus]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

About the stadiums and their facilities, Is the new Delle Alpi going to be something along those lines that Lo Zio talked about or is it just going to be a rebuilt stadium?

 

[gigimarulla]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I hear there's a lot of reefa going around italian stadiums during games? Can anyone confirm?

it depends on the stadium probably... here in Cosenza we are ganja addicted and we're proud of it , just look at my avatar, that's our team's ultras' logo.
we are anti prohibitionist (maybe it's because we live in a region that is known as "the italian Jamaica") and also sing many chants about smoking weed during the matches.
I remember an old song we used to sing during the 90's about the real Gigi Marulla (all time Cosenza's top scorer) that said

"Non ti fermare Marulla, non ti fermare Marulla
rulla e non ti fermare, rulla e non ti fermare"

You can translate "ma" as "but (in this case just a coma would be better)" from italian to english, and "rulla" as "roll a joint"...so it was like

"don't stop, roll a joint
don't stop,roll a joint
don't stop rolling joints
don't stop rolling joints"

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

as usual, u're a source of precious imformations gigi.... non ti fermare ma rulla
as for palermo, the main smell in the stadium is the panino con panelle e crocchè smell....

neoexodus, the new juventus arena is gonna reflect the new standards in stadium building. not just a stadium, but a polifunctional facility. juventus bought the stadium (and the terrain) from the council, then they dismantled the old delle alpi stadium and built a completely new facility (from ground zero), in the very same place the old stadium was.
Juventus Arena - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Nuovo_stadio_juventus.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Nuovo stadio juventus.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Nuovo_stadio_juventus.jpg/250px-Nuovo_stadio_juventus.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/ce/Nuovo_stadio_juventus.jpg/250px-Nuovo_stadio_juventus.jpg
just take a look at those numbers in the wiki page: 34 thousands square meters of commercial areas; 150 thousands sq. meters of services areas.

the projects for the new stadia in italy (roma, lazio, fiorentina, palermo they all already have their projects) will be very different from each others, but they all have some aspects in common.
- no more athletic lanes between the crowd and the pitch.
- no more separation glasses or nets or any other sort of stuff to separate the fans from the pitch.
- huge commercial areas.
- smaller capacity.

the capacity aspect is much more important than it might seem. u see back in the 80s we (italians) had this thing for huge stadia..... even small towns have (needlessly) enourmous stadia with huge capacity.... there's no point in having a 70 thousands seat stadium in a city like torino, where the average attendance is way lower..... the old delle alpi stadium had 69 thousands seat, and 2\3 of the seats were almost regularly empty..... watching a "not full" stadium is a serious mood killer, not only for the players, but also for those who follow the match in tv.

the new juventus arena will have 41 thousands seats (wich means it will always be completely packed with fans). and without the athletic lanes to separate the crowd from the players, the atmosphere will be so much better..... it will be like an english stadium....... but with italian fans inside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBLaMho55oY

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Interesing point in the capacity. I was watching Auxerre-Milan which was held in Auxerre this week and the stadium capacity was just 25,000. I then found out that the city only had a population of 45,000. If half the people showed up that would be an achievement.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

yeah, but percentages can be deceptive. i mean bringing at the stadium the 10% of a total population of 700 thousands people is far more impressive than bringing the 80% of a 50 thousands people city.
also keep in mind that torino has 2 clubs and that obviously effect the attendance...
just to make an example, genoa and fiorentina have pretty much the same average attendance (27 thousands fans), even if firenze's population is almost half of genova's population..... but while fiorentina is the only firenze football club, genova has 2 clubs (genoa and samp).

some great matches this week
sampdoria-milan and juve-fiorentina today
lazio-catania, udinese-napoli and palermo-roma tomorrow

palermo-roma might turn out to be a goal fest. palermo has the field advantage.... plus we had the entire week to prepare this match, while roma had only 3 days.... yet roma is on fire lately...... and both teams are very offensive-oriented....i feel this is gonna be one hell of a match