Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Ben, i didn't know that Italian clubs can earn more money in Serie A than in the EL. That explains a lot. That is not logic, but UEFA is to blame for that.
I agree with you that UEFA does not respect EL enough.
And sadly i also agree with you on the general level of the Jupiler League...and this for a country which has lots of young prospects.

 

[ilfenomeno]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

i m interested in the figures, how much does a middle class team in seria a get and how much would it get for playing a successfull EL, any sources on that?

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

oh my... please tell me u didn't read my last post on this topic.....tell me u missed it...

no, i saw it, but i can't read all that, hurts my eyes. I hear what you're saying but HELLO, we've just lost the 4th UCL spot. Perhaps not as a Palermo fan, but as an avid serie a fan and follower, that should mean something to you.

italian midclass clubs don't care about europa league!!!!
italian midclass clubs don't care about the 4th spot in champions league either!!!!
why would we care about that?? that 4th spot is not ours to take... let's face it, this is serie a, not bundi. in this league there are 4 clubs who are just richer, stronger and more resourceful..... inter, milan, juventus and roma.

Ok you don't care and yeah UEFA is screwing us over but damn, where's our pride. We were once the greatest league on the planet but now [shakes head].... And I'm not sure but I'm certain Napoli and Genoa are pretty well financed. In anycase taking players on loan isn't that big a deal. You tell me Palermo couldn't take Bochetti on loan from Genoa? Manfredini and Bellini from Atalanta? Tell them you're making a serious push for the Europa league... Genoa did last season, Napoli are doing it this season... And look at Fiorentina, yeah they fucked up last season and missed out on europe, but that was done to bad luck to be fair. But they have quality in depth. They could easily make it far in Europa, possibly even win it.

Anyway maybe we figure out how much teams stand to earn from making it in the Europa league before discussing it further. But surely there are intangibles to be gained from taking the Europa cup seriously. Going up against the likes of Liverpool and Money City garners all sorts of attention. Imagine what showcasing Illicic and Pastore around Europe would do for your image and monetarily. I'm sorry but this is just being narrow minded and lazy. But again lets wait and compare how much a serie a team stands to earn landing 5-9th in the league versus with making it to the last 4 in the Europa Cup.

But again we're just about to lose our 4th UCL spot, that's nothing to shrug about

this is not about signing 2 or 3 more players, like u said..... u don't line up 2 or 3 players in an europa league match..... this is about signing an entire "b team" !!!!

Ok, i agree with you, it can be draining but out by the group stage?!!? C'MON man. At least put the effort in.

pinilla (or any other player as good as him) WOULD NEVER ACCEPT TO BE A BACKUP IN A CLUB LIKE PALERMO!!!!! theese players might accept to be backups in milan or inter or juve or other top clubs.... but that's because over there they would get higher wages.... and also because of the bigger prestige of those clubs....

So what about Maccarone? With Miccoli and then Hernandez bursting on to the scene you can't tell me they didn't think they would spend a while warming up the bench. Look at Pozzi at Samp. He doesn't seem to mind. Or maybe he knew it was only a matter of time before Cassano fucked up

the only players we can sign as backups are the likes of goian or kasami.... and if u think u can face teams like cska or sparta praga with them and have a chance to win, well u're wrong mate.

c'mon man, he aint that bad. He did well enough in euro 2008 i seem to remember. I reckon he's about as good if not better than Sparta's starting CBs

i understand why u don't realise how much problems europa league gives us... u're a top club fan, your club isn't used to deal with theese problems..... but if u can't realise it even after i explained it to u, then i really have no arguments left to show u what a pain in the ass europa league is for us.

You know what, I'm hearing nothing but excuses here. Do you see Inter moan and complain about playing in the Coppa? Do you see us fielding our primavera? We take it all seriously because we want to win... we contest in 3 plus competitions a season, Palermo only bother with one, yet you have 2 or 3 players less in your squad (I'm trimming the fat here, because the likes of Mancini and Obinha and Suazo didn't feature last season... and Muntari is like an extra man for the opposition ).

I'm not buying these excuses. You have a decent enough squad. You're just not making the effort. What's more, I don't see why if Fiore can get Boruc and you guys can't get half decent CB.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Have to say, I agree with rFu here. I think it's too easy of an argument to say Italian clubs don't care about Europa. About 5 years ago, Italian teams actually made more effort than today, and I'm sure funding for it is higher now than before.

Edit - Check out these guys trying to imitate Zlatan at 2:16. 0:44 has Ronaldinho doing some cool stuff. I also love how Flamini joins the 4 Brazilians... looks so funny for some reason

YouTube - Ronaldinho Funny Training [ Imitating Ibrahimovic ] With Robinho Pato T.Silva - 09/11/2010

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

pride? intangibles? this is the real world rfu, not a master league or a football manager game. u don't pay stadium rent with pride.... u don't pay wages with intangibles.....
who cares about "being the best league in da world" and all theese chauvinistic bullshits..... luckily italians know better (in this department), we never had this ridiculous childish and nationalistic desire to "push and support" our league.... as if it was a club or something.

and however, if u wanna talk about pride.... i am absolutely proud of what palermo has been doing in the last 7 years. every season the management comes up with a competitive squad, every season new talented youngsters come from our primavera team... every season our scouts find some new talent to educate..... and in the last 3 seasons we also displayed some very nice football......
.... and all of this with the club's own resources. and even though we also have to pay for our stadium and training facilities rent, we actually manage to make profits.
unlike moratti, zamparini doesn't fund the club with 100 millions every summer to clear the overdraft..... zamparini actually makes money out of palermo.
so yes, i am proud.

what u seem to call "pride" is just stupidity to me... having people ranking leagues or masturbating themselves over the "awesomness" of a league.... this is laughable to me..... i mean what is this? "league fanboysm"?.... the footballing equivalent of dick size measuring? i really can't see how this could make me feel proud..... and btw proud of what? of a league? a league isn't a player or a club or an athlete... a league doesn't "perform".... how can anybody feel proud about a league??!!

what makes me proud (but i think "happy" is a more appropriate word) is to see my team scoring a beauty after a network of 6 first touch passes..... what makes me proud is to see one of the youngest teams in europe, outplaying top teams like juve, milan or roma.... what makes me proud is to think that such a nice team costs us only 22 millions per year in wages.
that's what makes me proud.... and if somebody thinks serie a sucks coz we don't play well in europa league..... I COULDN'T CARE LESS!!!!!
and i can guarrantee u, if there were any other italian fiorentina supporters or napoli supporters or genoa supporters.... they would be telling u exactly the same thing.

europa league is absolutely worthless. it has no visibility at all..... infact it has such a low visibility that sky didn't even buy it. and when last year, a journalist asked marco pistoni (sky sport italia manager) why they didn't buy europa league tv rights, he replied that italian people doesn't watch it...... and he's right. sky bought russian league tv rights last season.... well, just to give u an idea of the appeal of europa league, russian league matches have more "contacts" (people watching the matches) than europa league games. THAT'S THE VISIBILITY OF EUROPA LEAGUE!

u wanna see it for yourself? try asking your friends which teams won the last 5 europa league..... try and ask em who was the top scorer in the last europa league..... try and ask em who scored in the last final.... or which teams played in the semi-finals in the last 2 years.
ask them those questions and see how many of them will be able to reply without having to take a look at internet to find out the answers.

u say "imagine how great would be for your players' value to have a brillliant display in europa league"....... that's because u assume europa league is a stepped down version of champions league. the truth is champions league and europa league can't even be compared..... and a great display in, say, tonite's match against napoli, would guarrantee our players much more visibility than it would ever do in an europa league match.

let's try an exercise..... how many europa league games have u guys watched last season?.... i'm serious here.... all of u guys... how many europa league group stage matches did u watch last season?....... and how many champions league matches did u watch???
i don't even have to look for official data or tv contacts to prove u how poor is europa league's visibility..... i just have to ask u how many europa league games u watch....... so please let's not talk about visibility or the impact on the players' value because on this department, europa league is less useful than coppa italia.

u suggest to sign players on loan to have enough depth to face the competition without compromising our performances on sunday........ but sure u must realise that signing players on loan is the worst move possible, from a financial point of view.
i mean, u can't ignore tha fact that u can't make any money out of a loaned player!!!
small clubs like palermo live by a very simple economy. with the money we get from selling a player, we cover our wages expenses and fund our next signings. signing a player on loan means that the player's wage will inevitably figure as a loss in the balance sheet, as u won't have a chance to capitalize on his value and there will be no chance to make up for that expense..... u don't need a degree in economics to figure this out.
u say taking players on loan isn't a big deal.... this is wrong. it is a big deal. it's much more expensive to take players on loan than to buy them! coz when u buy them, u have a chance to capitalise on their growth. taking players on loan instead is like a free grant investment..... the only club who will gain something out of such a deal is the club which sends the player on loan, not the club who gets the player on loan.

and all of this for what???? to have a chance to compete in a cup that no one watches!?!?! to have a chance to win a cup that won't even guarrantee u enough money to cover for the player's bonuses?!?!
seriously why are we even having this conversation! this is ridiculous.

look rfu, it would be great to play in a proper european cup.
if europa league prizes and bonuses would be enough to allow u - at least - to cover for the players' bonuses for an europa league win.....
if europa league would be played on wednesday and not on thursday....
if europa league would actually gather some attention from tv broadcasters and sponsors....
if people in europe would actually watch europa league matches.....
if europa league had no group stage and had a lighter, less hectic schedule.....
then it would be great to play in it........ but that's not the case.

About 5 years ago, Italian teams actually made more effort than today, and I'm sure funding for it is higher now than before.

5 years ago a uefa cup final win was worth 12 millions euros...... wich is exactly what it's worth today........
but, whereas the incomes didn't grow up, the expenses did, as the players' average wages and bonuses grow each and every season.
and let me also remind u that the old uefa cup had no groups stage and that, therefore, the old uefa cup forced the teams to a much smaller "commitment", in terms of matches to play.... the old uefa cup was pretty much like the coppa italia, in terms of matches to play..... while today europa leagues forces small clubs like palermo to play the same ammount of matches champions league does...... but while the return on investement is huge in champions league, europa league is a cost, not an investment.

anyway guys i really couldn't argument my points better than i already did. if u still think we should put more effort in a competition that doesn't give u anything in return..... if u still think that the intangibles or some distorted national pride is more important than financial stability.... or if u think that theese are just "excuses".... well i guess there's nothing i could possibly say to change your mind.

just let me end this post with a final remark. like stef said, till some years ago, italian clubs used to take uefa cup in big consideration...... tanzi's parma, cecchi gori's fiorentina, cragnotti's lazio... theese clubs had some great results in uefa cup...... infact cragnotti, tanzi and cecchi gori used to share your views about the importance of having great displays in europe.... they used to believe those "intangibles" rfu mentioned were actually more important than having a return on investment.... were more important than facing a loss in the balance sheet.....
...... u guys remember what happened to those teams and their owners, don't u?!?
so allow me to say, i'm glad that zamparini (palermo), de laurentis (napoli), preziosi (genoa), della valle (fiorentina) pozzo (udinese) and garrone (sampdoria) don't agree with u guys

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I totally agree with the screw up of Europa League but come on; Juve couldn’t make it pass the group stage? They should when Man City, Liverpool, Villareal, Atletico, and Sevilla are all going through. I'd like to hear their excuse.

I am just saying it is a shame to lose that fourth spot when the top 4 clubs are not limited to the big four now a days when you got some very competitive teams like Palermo,Lazio, and Napoli who might lose any sort of chance to showcase their class and players(Look at Bale's price after that Inter performance in the CL) and earning huge money. Thinking Juve, Inter, Roma, and Milan will conquer these four positions from now on is not completely right like it used to be in the early 2000’s. Even if they start spending a lot, it will not match what they used to spend back then. Plus, there are a lot of teams across Europe willing to spend a lot more now than the Italian teams. Then you got that financial fairplay rule next season(which is supposed to reduce the gap between teams) which is supposed to limit their spendings more.

Could Inter and their players get slapped in the face anymore? Sneijder will not win Ballon D'Or and Messi is ahead of him despite of a better WC and year.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

as for the financial fair play, i won't believe it till i see it..... and i don't think we'll ever see it working for real.
and i still mantain that in 2 years serie a will have a proper top 4 again. once milan's expensive contracts will expire, berlusconi's daughter will stop breaking his father's balls. roma will soon have a new owner... juventus is already an unbelievably better team than it was just 3 months ago.... just give marotta and del neri 1 more season and juve will be a title contender.....

so there's just won't be any room for other clubs in champions league...... besides guys, there already isn't room for serie a midclass teams in champions league.... i mean how many midclass team made it to champions league in the last few years? fiorentina and udinese. only 2 clubs.

u refer to the epl situation and tottenham, but u see, it's not correct to compare tottenham to its italian counterparts. tottenham is hardly a midclass team by italian standards. they're unbelievably richer than, say, palermo or napoli. they play in premiership (and that alone provides them more "tv-rights money" than any italian midclass club could ever dream)... they have their own stadium.... plus there are only 3 proper top teams in england right now, wich means that other clubs (like man city and spurs) can have champions league aspirations and fight for the 4th spot.

however the most important thing is..... u guys seem to think this 4th spot loss is related to our europa league results.
that is absolutely not true. the reason why we lost points in the ranking is because in the last 4 years serie a lost 2 "players" in champions league: milan and juve. juve was dismantled by calciopoli, while milan was "downsized" by berlusconi's daughter financial concerns.

we didn't face a drop in europa league\uefa cup results. we've always been shit in europa league\uefa cup.... we don't bother about europa league\uefa cup since the days of tanzi and cragnotti....
the drop was in champions league, and was determined by juve and milan.
and if u guys care that much about that 4th spot (it's not really a big deal to me), then champions league is the turf where u'll have to win it back!

i m interested in the figures, how much does a middle class team in seria a get and how much would it get for playing a successfull EL, any sources on that?

for the EL related incomes, u can find them in that post i linked above.
as for the serie a incomes, it's impossible for us to know the exact figures... only the club owners know it. because the tv-rights money (as u guys probably know we have a collective deal) is distributed according to composite factors.
1 - cathcment area - for instance a big city like milan or napoli gets more money than a small village like chievo.
2 - league results over the last 5 seasons.

the thing is, only the club owners know how much of that money comes to them for the catchement area factor and how much depends on the placement in the league, so there's no way we can tell how much more money a 5th or a 7th place provides u.

the only thing we know is that several club owners (zamparini, spinelli, preziosi, garrone, pozzo) said that a 6th place in serie a is more profitable than an europa league final win.

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I agree with most point in your posts Ben.
But i don't think the EL is to blame. It's the CL that is to blame.
The Cl is a bastard or an half-harted solution.

Either you have a CL with only the champions of each country and without group stages but with immediate elimination, or else you really make a league with the best European clubs. Then people will be allowed to see the best clubs week in week out. But i'm against this second solution. It will kill football at gras roots level and fantastic clubs like Palermo, Lille, Sevilla, Ajax and others will disappear...in the long term this will be the end of football.

Oh Ben: in Belgium Euro League is watched more than CL, because the Belgian clubs play more frequent (and longer) in the Euro League (but that was not your point).

 

[tc811]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

...... u guys remember what happened to those teams and their owners, don't u?!?
so allow me to say, i'm glad that zamparini (palermo), de laurentis (napoli), preziosi (genoa), della valle (fiorentina) pozzo (udinese) and garrone (sampdoria) don't agree with u guys

Hey Ben, I've been reading your posts for a few months and let me say I'm a big fan of the gems you've dedicated to this forum. Could you enlighten me on this bolded text? I'm a newbie when it comes to Serie A (2-3 years).

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

wellcome on board mate. after splashing dozens of millions for years (despite the lack of matching incomes) and building an amazing squad (batistuta, rui costa, baiano, toldo, chiesa, morfeo, mijatovic, torricelli, flachi, padalino and many more i don't remember right now), Vittorio Cecchi Gori (former fiorentina owner) had to face the consequences of his years of crazy spending. fiorentina faced bankrupt. all the players were gone, the club was dumped in serie c (italian third division). fiorentina was even deprived of his name; infact the new owners (the Della Valle family) had to found a new company, with a new name (florentia viola), as fiorentina was officially dead. So Firenze's club was stripped of his name, of his history... even of his trophies.
and only 1 year after the fiorentina's death, the della valle family were eventually able to buy back the old name "fiorentina" and also the history (and trophies) of the old dead club.
the della valle family had to start over from serie c..... climbing the ranks of italian football, through serie b and finally serie a. they rebuilt the club on solid foundations, as today fiorentina has no debts at all and makes profits each and every season.

parma and lazio fans were more lucky (so to speak) than fiorentina fans. Callisto Tanzi (former parma owner) and Sergio Cragnotti did the exact same mistake Cecchi Gori did in firenze: overspending and thinking international glory was more important than financial stability....... Callisto Tanzi turned Parma into one of the greatests teams in europe, a team which won 2 uefa cups in 4 years and which became a title contender in serie a.... a young (but already world class) gigi buffon, fabio cannavaro and thuram (arguably the best cb partnership in the world those days)...veron, couto, dino baggio, conceicao, almeyda and nakata at midfield....Stoichkov, crespo, inzaghi, zola in attack.... some of the greatest players in the world have played in parma, during the Tanzi era (from '96 to 2004).... but also Tanzi overreached himself and spent more than he could.

and the only reason why parma didn't face the same tragic end fiorentina had to deal with... is because the club was saved by a very tricky financial move (allowed by a recently approved law: the legge marzano). yet, even though parma managed to avoid the loss of his name and history..... even though they didn't have to start over from serie c, the new owner still had to payout parma's debts... and it took them years to get back on track.

as for lazio, we all know the glorious all star team Cragnotti (lazio owner from '98 to 2003) built. marcheggiani, mjhailovic, nesta, nedved, stankovic, salas, mancini, boksic, vieri, sensini, simeone, claudio lopez, peruzzi, stam, liverani, fiore.
cragnotti spared no expenses, and even though the club had great incomes, he spent so much money to put the club in debt..... just to give u an idea, he bought mendieta from valencia for 89 miliardi of liras!!! that's the equivalent of 47 millions euros!!!! and we're talking about 2001!!! (the equivalent of those 47 million euros in today's economy would probably be 80 millions euros)..... mendieta turned out to be a huge flop, so what did Cragnotti do? after 1 single season, he sent him back in spain... in barcelona..... ON A FREE LOAN!... that means a capital loss of 47 millions euros in 1 single year!
Cragnotti made lazio the best team in europe (by far) but he also brought the club on the brink of disaster..... lazio was saved from certain bankrupcy by their current owner (claudio lotito)..... Lotito saved lazio from the same consequences fiorentina faced...... but we're in 2010... 6 years after the end of cragnotti's era...... and lotito is still paying cragnotti's debts!

so u can clearely see why today most italian club presidents and owners value financial stability much more than european glory. if europa league would be worth (at least) half as much as champions league, then they would certainly take europa league in big consideration....... but not at theese conditions.

I agree with most point in your posts Ben.
But i don't think the EL is to blame. It's the CL that is to blame.
The Cl is a bastard or an half-harted solution.

Either you have a CL with only the champions of each country and without group stages but with immediate elimination, or else you really make a league with the best European clubs. Then people will be allowed to see the best clubs week in week out. But i'm against this second solution. It will kill football at gras roots level and fantastic clubs like Palermo, Lille, Sevilla, Ajax and others will disappear...in the long term this will be the end of football.

yeah i completely agree with u. actually i don't even think the CL is to blame.... i mean there's a reason if champions league has this current format.... and it's the same reason why europa league has this current format...... and also the same reason why serie a (aswell as liga and epl) have a 20 clubs format.... actually it's not 1 reason, there are 2 reasons: common consent and money.

i also understand why platini decided for this new formula change in both CL and europa league. When Platini decided to try and run for uefa presidency, he knew Johansson already had the approval of the top european leagues (epl, liga, serie a).... so he had to create a political platform that could win the concensus of minor leagues.
and that's how he won the elections; thanks to the vote of minor leagues. now he's ovbiously trying to keep his promises (like any good politician would do).
there are lots of people (especially in england it seems) who think platini has some sort of a hidden agenda or his a "hater".... this is obviously ridiculous.
there's no hidden agenda at all.... everyone knew his political platform.... and he doesn't "hate" england or italy......he's a grown man, not a childish fanboy..... he's just making the best interests of those who voted for him...... italy didn't vote for platini, neither england.... so why should he value Palermo's needs more than, say, Gent's needs.

it's always just a matter of perspectives. if u would ask an italian, he would probably tell u platini is doing a bad job.... that champions league and europa league should have no group stages at all... that those competitions should have less teams and a lighter schedule.....
... but if u ask a debreceni fan or a belgian fan or a romanian fan, he would probably tell u platini is doing an amazing job.

what's best for top clubs like barca, inter and chelsea, might not be good for midclass clubs like palermo...... and what's best for palermo may not be good for very small clubs in minor leagues like Gent....
there's no way of making us all happy, so i'm not gonna complain about platini's job..... i'm not gonna say i want him to change europa league, just to fullfill my club's needs.....
BUT on the other side no one can force palermo to commit itself to a competition that palermo doesn't like, and no one can judge us for not giving our best in a cup that wasn't conceived for us in the first place.

in the end, platini himself could turn this argument around and tell me "hey ben what do u want from me?! why don't u ask the italian federation why on earth they decided to add 2 more clubs to serie a??? i mean u guys turn serie a into a 20 clubs league, and then i'm the one who is making your schedule too busy?!? please give me a break"
and if he would reply my like this, i couldn't really deny any of his points. infact not only the europa league and champions league is badly conceived, but also our domestic leagues.....all the top ones except bundi

no, i saw it, but i can't read all that, hurts my eyes.

LOL fair enough i wish i could be more concise in english.
i mean, i could rewrite this post in spanish or french or italian... and it would come out less than half as long as it did in english... oh well

c'mon man, he aint that bad. He did well enough in euro 2008 i seem to remember. I reckon he's about as good if not better than Sparta's starting CBs

he did great in euro 2008 (along with his partner tamas)..... infact i was delighted when i heard palermo was about to sign him.... "what a high quality backup we got ourselves!" i thought. i don't know what happened later, but believe me, the player u admired in euro 2008 was a completely different cb from the current goian. i can't even begin to tell u how much of a liability he is.
----------------------------------------------------------------

btw impressive display by napoli yesterday... they pretty much outplayed us... i'v never seen palermo going through so much trouble this season... that was probably our worst seasonal performance (along with the inter match), but it was clearely napoli's merit if we couldn't play our football. hats off! and anyway, we're going to rape them in palermo!

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

so there's just won't be any room for other clubs in champions league...... besides guys, there already isn't room for serie a midclass teams in champions league.... i mean how many midclass team made it to champions league in the last few years? fiorentina and udinese. only 2 clubs.

Lazio in 2007/8 ? Pretty sure they were in a group with Real Madrid, Olympiacos and Weder Bremen ??

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Yep, and they put up a pretty good fight!

 

[tc811]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

LOL fair enough i wish i could be more concise in english.
i mean, i could rewrite this post in spanish or french or italian... and it would come out less than half as long as it did in english... oh well

Your post length is fine Ben, we don't want you typing in bullet points now.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

thanks mate.... but i really keep trying having my posts as brief as possible... obviously the outcome of my efforts is utterly poor.

Lazio in 2007/8 ? Pretty sure they were in a group with Real Madrid, Olympiacos and Weder Bremen ??

oh yeah, i completely forgot about rossi's lazio! if i remember well they also trashed real madrid that season, didn't they?
...anyway i stand corrected, make it 3 clubs
..... come to think of it, udinese, samp, lazio and fiorentina (samp didn't really make it, but they got the 4th place, wich is what matters here)... that's 4 clubs in 5 years....this is actually a pretty good result from midclass clubs. so maybe there is room for midclass clubs

anyway rfu, your beloved inter sure didn't help the cause yesterday.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I think Rafa will be out if he doesn't win the World Club Cup. Maybe trigger happy Moratti will return

 

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

The way Inter are deteriorating while Juventus and Milan are improving, we could see a return to old school, pre-Calciopoli Serie A.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

i was out for dinner and i didn't watch the inter match, so i can't very well comment on it. it was sure a bit of a shock to see the result as i came back home.
however, even though rafa (to some degree) is definitely responsible, i gotta say we can't really be too harsh on him....
as i turned on the tv a journalist was comparing inter's champions league final formation with yesterday's night formation... it was just a different team... biraghi, nkwankwo (who the hell is this one?), santon at midfield....rafa really has lots of justifications in his defense.
anyway inter is definitely gonna bounce back... once the injury issue will get better and the world cup will be over, they'll probably get back on track.... but i think then it will already be too late....

..one thing is for sure, this is shaping up as one really great season. in the last 5 years we had 1 team above anyone else, and a great exciting race between the others.... now that inter joined "the pack" the race is gonna be even more interesting.

however allegri's milan is impressimg me more and more and more... i knew allegri was a very good coach, i've said it many times here...... but wow! this is way beyond my expectations!!!

as for juve instead, i'm absolutely not surprised. del neri is a great coach, marotta is a world class team director.... if u put them together, they won't get it wrong.
i'm just surprised by how quickly del neri transformed juventus.... i mean del neri's football is no easy to learn... it usually takes a few months for the players to digest his directives. and yet juventus is already hitting the ground running! well done.

i'd love to hear from our milanisti and juventini here.. stef, zeem, hey there, ale, dominic, matt, martin, neoexodus... how do u guys feel about your teams (milan and juve) so far?

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Samp were unlucky to get Bremen this year in the knockout qualification. Imagine if they had say got Young Boys or Berner, Copenhagen or Auxerre ? They probably would have made it to the group stage.

I think that UEFA need to do something to make the UEFA Cup / Europa League more valued - maybe give the winners an automatic spot in next years CL group stage ? The last 3 winners (Atletico, Shakhtar, Zenit) have been in and out of the CL over the last few years too, so I don't think it would be a massive dilution of quality to have put them in the group stage.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Ben, I was always a fan of Allegri since his appointment. I was especially excited at the chance of having a team that rotates and relies on balance, something Leonardo didn't have - although Leo's Milan scored about 9 goals a match, while conceding 5.

The Brescia match and many others before shows how he puts faith in players like Abate, Prince and Flamini - they are completely different players from September. They play with a lot of energy and seem to be playing well as part of the team.

I think the biggest transformation that's quite clear from September and now is that our midfield to attack is far more balanced and far more dynamic. Players are cutting in and we are rotating the ball with short passes frequently. It's great that we don't rely on Pirlo long balls or Ronaldinho 'no-looks' as our only source of moving forward. Every player has something to offer right now.

I'm also loving the fact that he's not afraid to bench Gattuso, Seedorf or Ronaldinho - Robinho, Prince and Flamini are clearly offering a different style of play, which Max isn't afraid of using.

Anyway, I'm also quite pleased with our signings so far - Yepes is useful, Gattuso is reborn (basically a new signing), Robinho is very very effective and Ibra is still a prick that celebrates under the Inter curva (). I'm excited for how Milan will continue to develop, and can't wait for the return of Pato - which imo is the death of Ronaldinho's Milan career.

I'd also love to see Paloschi come back to cover Pippo's injury. One thing I see as a mystery is Onyewu's disappearance - I really think he can offer a different alternative to defence. The man beat up Zlatan... not many can do that.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Samp were unlucky to get Bremen this year in the knockout qualification. Imagine if they had say got Young Boys or Berner, Copenhagen or Auxerre ? They probably would have made it to the group stage.

to be honest, samp could easily handle werder bremen too... but not in august, when the fitness gap between german clubs and italian clubs is so huge.... it's just unfair to put german clubs against italian clubs in august or september.
infact in the second leg (wich was just one week after the first leg), we already saw glimpses of the "real" samp.... have samp playing against werder right now, and u'll see what i'm talking about.

I think that UEFA need to do something to make the UEFA Cup / Europa League more valued - maybe give the winners an automatic spot in next years CL group stage ? The last 3 winners (Atletico, Shakhtar, Zenit) have been in and out of the CL over the last few years too, so I don't think it would be a massive dilution of quality to have put them in the group stage.

it wouldn't be a diluition at all. europa league semi finalist are usually much better teams than the majority of the teams playing in champions league.
however ed, that wouldn't be enough to value europa league.
1 - higher money prizes for each win.... the current money might be enough for eastern european clubs, but sure it isn't enough for us. that would be the best way from uefa to persuade italian clubs to sign extra players or to line up their starters (and have them putting some effort in it).

2 - get rid of the group stage... that was really a bad idea. group stages kill the excitement of the cup, that in-or-out feeling. plus group stages make the europa league schedule way too busy.... it's almost like a second championship.... let's not forget that the clubs who play in europa league don't have the same resources of the clubs which play in champions league.

3 - rethink the schedule. playing on thursdays on champions league weeks is just stupid... it makes the europa league schedule even more complicated to fit into our league calendar and it makes europa league less appealing.
after watching champions league matches in tuesday and wednesday, do they really believe any average fan would still spend his thursday evening in front of a tv watching football?!?! we do have a life.... friends, girlfriends, wives...and usually people also has other interests in life, other than football.
just have us playing in the very same days of the week champions league is played (on wednesday) but in different weeks (champions league isn't on every week afterall). the tv audience would be much higher and the clubs could fit their europa league games more easily into their calendar.

that would already be a good start to value europa league.
-----------------------

stef good post. having watched milan a lot more closely than me, u obviously have a better idea of what's going on..... and from your post, i can see u pretty much share my same opinion.

also i completely forgot about paloschi!! now that would be a very good call. he seems to be perfect to play inzaghi's role. although he's still young and probably would need more playtime than that.
and yeah, what the hell happened to gooch?!?

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Onyewu is a mystery. Even in the WC, he played one game and then dissappeared. He might play tonight though but Yepes and Sokratis will be ahead of him.

You might be right Ben. Seems Milan are ready to splash some cash again. I just read that Cesare Maldini mentioned in an interview that Milan in January are looking for a top striker(named Benzema as Milan's prmary target but said it depends if Real sign Dzeko/Milito) and a full-back, mostly a left back(named Van der Wiel or Ceontrao) and that Milan are looking beyond Inzaghi now.

Add to that, Braida was in Brazil to talk about Ganso. Now that's just insane!!!!

Allegri has been getting the job done in Serie A. Add to what stef said, he fields a different midfield combo every game that turns out to suit the game greatly. I'd really like to see who he fields against Roma. The CL is where we have been seeing Milan's flaws in the last couple of years and the run up till now hasn't been that great.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I think we need to build upwards. Focus on building a competitive team in Serie A first, then in the summer we invest and build for Europe. I think we will bring someone in for fullback, but not until the summer. I also think Benzema would be awesome!, but I think we will end up with someone like Matri or Paloschi (Pippo was the one that suggested to bring him back on Sky Sports!).

About Gooch - I think he's just began training after his injury, and remember that we're not paying him this year.

I'm certain that Ronaldinho is a goner.

 

[YoungGun_UK]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Why the need for a top striker? Your fire-power is good enough to win the Champions League as it is IMO, Ibrahimovic, Pato and Robinho is a fearsome front three, you just need to add depth rather than added quality.

Improving the midfield is something that is long needed though IMO.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Because Pato is injured and Inzaghi is injured. We have no sub for Ibrahimovic and just Ronaldinho to cover Robinho's loss. We need another striker that can rotate - Ibra can't play every game.

Ben, here's another reason why I like Allegri. It's from a Milan blog, and I agree with it:

Titolo alla partita: Allegri si sbizzarrisce

Didattica dal teleschermo. Al 41' l'azione che dice perché in questo sistema Boateng può fare il trequartista e Ronaldinho non può fare altro che il centravanti: palla recuperata, appoggio su Pirlo, in verticale per Ibra che abbandona l'area arretrando a playmaker offensivo, sponda per Boateng che si inserisce in corsa e tiro fuori. Un'azione di quelle studiate a tavolino. E qui chiunque capisce che sulla trequarti in quel modo Dinho non può proprio giocare: il problema non è solo di fase difensiva, è prima di tutto di fase offensiva.

Didattica dalla sala stampa. Capitolo Allegri. Posso dirlo che mi sto innamorando? Okay, lo dico. La spiegazione che dà della scelta di Boateng nel ruolo di Seedorf è ineccepibile ("il Brescia è molto chiuso e mi serviva un trequartista che si inserisce bene"), ci dice che dietro non c'è stata solo la voglia di sperimentare e dà la misura di un allenatore molto flessibile. Una qualità che non avevano né l'Ancelotti degli ultimi due anni né Leonardo. La voglia di sperimentare c'è stata con Pirlo mezz'ala: speriamo sia anche finita, perché proprio non è affar suo stare lì. E se non lo è quando non c'è da fare fase difensiva come stasera, figuriamoci in altro tipo di partita.

Didattica dall'esperienza. Queste prime quindici giornate non dicono che vinceremo lo scudetto (cosa che peraltro penso dalla sera di Lazio-Milan, come i lettori più accorti hanno notato). Dicono che la rosa è più ricca del previsto e che l'allenatore è giusto. Che forse è anche meglio.

 

[Dominic]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Short answer, Ben.. little time. But i'm glad to be a contender again. I like the side, it has room for improvement, but it makes one hopeful.

Oh and Milan still look very beatable..

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Yeah, yesterday Milan were outplayed by Ajax...and this isn't the best Ajax team.
I've only seen Milan in the CL and they look a soulless and saturated bunch of players (i wouldn't call them a team...).
Is this the team that are leaders in Serie A? This could seen as "proof" for people who are talking about a decline of Italian football. Unfortunately i never see Serie A matches (which is a pity, because i'm a big fan).
It seems they attract the wrong kind of players: Ibrahimovic, Ronaldinho, Robinho aren't exactly team players. Players like Pirlo and Seedorf seem saturated and Gattuso has remarkable work ethic but is simply not talented enough to play on the highest level as an important player in the team (he has the mentality to be a leader, but lacks the talent IMO).
I like Boateng and Flamini (well i remember him from his Arsenal days, he was fantatstic there...they still miss him), but they are nothing more than very good supporting team players. Maybe Pato can become the leader of the team...it seems Milan miss an star player who can decide matches. But once again, i only judge them from the CL matches, which is maybe unfair.

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

I think that's a poor indication of Milan from the last few league games. We weren't going to lose our group position in this game, where as Ajax had to win to get the Europa League spot. We were missing about 4 starters. Also, this year we've been disappointing in CL, but in the years we've won it (2003 and 2007), we were poor in the group stages.

Gerd, you should catch us in the league, we're a different team that seems to be improving each week. Robinho has actually impressed us all - he really works hard for the team. Ronaldinho doesn't start anymore, this was his first game after 5 matches. Ibrahimovic has 12 goals in 18 games and assisted a goal against Brescia.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

what u saw yesterday is not the milan team we're talking about Gerd. yesterday's match reflets milan's football pretty much like barca's draw against rubin kazan (the 1st leg, the one that occurred a few weeks ago) reflects barca or like real madrid's trashing against the blaugrana reflects the merengues situation.
they're a completely different thing from that.
just to put things in perspective... i sincerely believe palermo would kick the crap out of that ajax team..... but i really wouldn't wouldn't wanna face milan right now as they would probably trash palermo.
yestreday was just a bad day.... it kinda seemed the "old milan" for a while.

stef, very good points in that quote. u know who would do boateng's job even better than boateng? lazzari... which, btw, was also coached by allegri in cagliari.... if ronaldihno leaves in jannuary (most likely) i can see galliani going for lazzari or a player with his features anyway.

Because Pato is injured and Inzaghi is injured. We have no sub for Ibrahimovic and just Ronaldinho to cover Robinho's loss. We need another striker that can rotate - Ibra can't play every game.

that's true..... Younggun has a point though... some fresh blood at midfield would be needed aswell.

Dominic, yeah milan certainly doesn't look unbeatable... but i think that's normal... and healthy. we're used to have a team that looks unbeatable in the league (inter) so having a leader that seems "human" is kind of a "new feeling"... but it's a good thing. besides the only real "not beatable teams" i can think of (in the last few seasons) were inter and barca.
i gotta say, i'm really loving how milan and juve play so far.

edit: oh and btw fellas, all 3 italian teams are second in their group stages... wich means there's a pretty decent chance they will all be out of the champions league in the very next round.....
so much for complaining about midlcass clubs' results in europa leauge

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

Thiago Silva might be injured for the season. Damn!!!! I hope Nesta stays really safe now.

Palermo signed a what seems to be an exciting defender and have eyes on Schalke Rakitic. Very interesting.

 

[ALBICELESTE2010]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2010/11 Season

the thing is, if u enter the pitch for an europa league match and your main concern is not to win the match but to save your energies, then u're not gonna win, even if u're facing a much weaker team (like, say, lausanne, who plays in swiss 2nd division).

Sounds reasonable to me amigo. You were so close last season. Hopefully this season you'll go one better.

By the way your English is very ,very good. Though I don't like seeing textspeak in written form.